Bavaria unifying Germany?

Hi

As someone with an interest in German history but a fascination Bavaria, I'd be interested to hear your opinions on possible events that could result in Bavaria unifying Germany, not Prussia, with the result being the German capital being in Munich.

Considering the north-south, catholic-protrstant split would anything in the wars of religion be in anyway relevant?
 

ingemann

Banned
I have a really hard time seeing Bavaria unite Germany, it's not impossible but it would demand a relative early POD (1730ties), which would change a lot of elements in Bavarian culture.

I don't think that Bavaria are able to win the Austrian Succession War, so let push Bavaria toward greatness while avoiding it. So let say a freak accident kill both Maria Theresa and her sister Maria Anna in the 1733, suddenly Charles VI don't have any heir, while he likely try his best to produce one it's hopeless. Instead everybody wait for his death to split the loot, then by 1740 he dies, and a major succession war begins. It end with a compromise, where Bavaria get Austria, Bohemia, Belgium and Milan (and the imperial crown), France Naples and Sicily, Saxony Hungary-Croatia and Prussia Silesia.

Maximilian III Joseph succeed in producing a son so Bavaria avoid another ugly succession war, through he end up in one later with the death of Charles Theodore (in OTL elector of Bavaria and Palatinate, here only elector of the latter), so by the early 19th century Bavaria own vast possession spread over southern and western Germany (they rule more or less 50% of the HRE). From there even with ugly conflicts with France full unifacation is not that hard, through north eastern Germany will likely end up staying out.
 
I am not as pessimistic as ingemann regarding the Austrian WoS: The bavarian cannot win it on its own anyway, but in OTL they were more or less hung out to dry by their French allies. An early French-Bavarian attack on Vienna could have changed their fortunes very much.

But how important is it for you to have Munich as capital? Yes, it is the anlogue of Berlin, but other, technically non-Bavarian cities would have been easier to explain if the HRE framework is in any way part of this Germany's construction: Nuremberg held the Imperial Regalia, while Regensburg hosted the Perpetual Diet as a kind of feudal parliament.
 
In order for Bavaria to unite Germany, it needs to become the dominant power within Germany. The Austrian War of Succession is probably too late.

Maximilian I had made Bavaria one of the larger powers in Germany right before the Thirty Years War. He was a major rival to the Habsburgs, but as a Catholic sided with them. The period of his reign and that of son was probably the height of Bavarian power and influence. His grandson basically squandered his inheritance by siding with France during the War of the Spanish Succession.

I think a POD around that time period of these three generations is what is needed to catapult Bavara into the position Prussia eventually seized.

If Bavara can gain additional lands, especially in what will become the industrial heartland of the Ruhr, then Bavaria would be in a position to unite Germany. If the Wittelsbachs are then able to become HRE at some point, it becomes even easier.
 
All was Prussia needed to become a dominant power in Germany was one King obsessed with building up a big army and an other one who knew how to use it. No reason why this couldn´t happen in Bavaria.
 
All was Prussia needed to become a dominant power in Germany was one King obsessed with building up a big army and an other one who knew how to use it. No reason why this couldn´t happen in Bavaria.

No, during that time period Prussia was never the dominant power in Germany. What made them the dominant power in Germany was their control of the Rhineland which gave them one of the most valuable industrial regions in the world.
 
No, during that time period Prussia was never the dominant power in Germany. What made them the dominant power in Germany was their control of the Rhineland which gave them one of the most valuable industrial regions in the world.

While Prussia historically controlled portions of the Rhineland, it was not until 1815 that Prussia took full control of the Rhineland, and not until over three decades later that it became an industrial powerhouse. However, it is fair to say that long before that, by the Seven Years' War, at least, Prussia was already a major player in European politics, not to mention German politics. I would argue more that the modernizations of Elector Frederick Wilhelm, and King Frederick Wilhelm I contributed more to Prussia's rise as the dominant power, with Frederick the Great using their accomplishments to catapult Prussia into status as a major power in Germany.
 
No, during that time period Prussia was never the dominant power in Germany. What made them the dominant power in Germany was their control of the Rhineland which gave them one of the most valuable industrial regions in the world.

Can you explain this a bit more? I'm keen to learn.
 
Can you explain this a bit more? I'm keen to learn.

Essentially pre-fritz Prussia was in that era a secondary power capable of hitting well above it's weight class due to a first rate army and a well managed economy, it was a lot like Sweden in that way (although with a population capable of holding that status longterm). After their victories over the Hapsburgs under Frederick they where definately a great power though, not necessarilly the greatest but but one among equals. The Napoleonic wars though completely changed the situation because at the end Prussia was granted control of the Rhineland which turned out to be a complete coup on Prussias part given the regions future industrial importance. Prussia only really completely dominated North Germany after the Austro Prussian war when they annexed Hannover into the kingdom and formed the North German Confederation, in which Prussia was by far the most powerful and domineering member.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
I think you need to go back to the 1300s and stop the Wittelsbach dynasty to split up in many branches (or try to find a way to get the branches to reunify quickly).
 
If you keep Bavaria allied with Austria in the earlier parts of the 18th century, is there any chance that Maria-Theresa marries a Bavarian Wittelsbach rather than the Duke of Lorraine?
 
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