Battleships Bismarck & Littorio (or VV) meet-up

Redbeard

Banned
Yes Battleships could do so, but certainly not the cruisers and destroyers needed to protect them. Battleships sailing on their own, were easy pickings ofr Allied submarines and aircraft, both form land and form aircraft carriers, which I already mentioned were likely to operate against them, as soon as they were noticed to be out of their ports. They will get bottled up easily, as the narrow strait of Gibraltar is not the sort of sea you can easily have free way of movement, when attacked there. Force H was Always there with one aircraft carrier at least, not even suggesting the Mediterranean Fleet was hunting them too.

hey might survive, but they cannot allow to get damaged, even moderate damage. Once hit by some for of weapon, they cannot longer continue, as they urgently needed to get back and get repaired, therefor being mission killed. It is the same as the Kriegsmarine had to deal with in the OTL, so the Regia Marina will equally have to deal with this mere fact.

Actually I think you very well could make a strong squadron capable of following the battleships:

Destroyers 1200 tons +:
Freccia class: 4600 nm at 12 knots
Folgore class: 3600 nm at 12 knots
Maestrale class: 4000 nm at 12 knots
Oriani class. 2190 nm at 18 knots (but same bunkerage as previous classes, so probably appr. 4000 nm range at 12 knots)
Soldati calss: 2200 nm at 20 knots (but same bunkerage as previous classes, so probably appr. 4000 nm range at 12 knots)

In short it seems like we can count on something like 3000 nm at 16 knots.

Cruisers:
Da Barbiano class: 3800 nm at 18 knots
Luigi Cadorna class 3000 nm at 16 knots
Montecuccoli class: 4100 nm at 18 knots
D'Aosta class: 3900 nm at 14 knots
Abruzzi class: 4125 nm at 12,7(!) knots
Trento class: 4160 nm at 16 knots
Zara class: 4480-5434 nm at 16 knots

The Italian designs certainly weren't "long rangers" but IMHO not as handicapped as we usually see it. Would be dreadful in the Pacific, but based in France and operating vs. the Home Fleet in a pre Sea Lion scenario or whatever I think they would do fine range wise. Some would probably take some buckling from the rough weather in the North Sea however.
 
The Italian designs certainly weren't "long rangers" but IMHO not as handicapped as we usually see it. Would be dreadful in the Pacific
I wonder how the Italian cruiser(s) based in China handled the endurance and crew accommodation challenges.
 
I will admit, when I first read the title, it was asking for a meeting in BATTLE between the Bismarck and Littorrio (VV). That MIGHT have happened if Italy had stayed neutral and then later joined the Allies. As others have said though, the Italian Ships had short legs and were optimized for the Mediterranean.
 
I will admit, when I first read the title, it was asking for a meeting in BATTLE between the Bismarck and Littorrio (VV). That MIGHT have happened if Italy had stayed neutral and then later joined the Allies. As others have said though, the Italian Ships had short legs and were optimized for the Mediterranean.

A more likely outcome would have been Italy surrendering as in teh OTL and the Littorio class ships assigned to the Royal Navy, which actually had been proposed before laying them up in the Red Sea, to ease tensions with the USSR. In theory the OTL period might have seen a clash between Tirpitz and a Littorio under British flag, after the surrender of the Italian Fleet and no serius damage to the surrendering Littorio class ships due to Luftwaffe attacks.
 

Redbeard

Banned
A more likely outcome would have been Italy surrendering as in teh OTL and the Littorio class ships assigned to the Royal Navy, which actually had been proposed before laying them up in the Red Sea, to ease tensions with the USSR. In theory the OTL period might have seen a clash between Tirpitz and a Littorio under British flag, after the surrender of the Italian Fleet and no serius damage to the surrendering Littorio class ships due to Luftwaffe attacks.

Would indeed have been very interesting. Littorio class were very powerful ships and as I understand the accuracy problems were mainly due to low quality propelleants and shells. Should have been possible to use British propelleant and Shells instead and after some calibration shooting get a ship able to stand up against any opponent. I haven't got the data at hand (Navweapons down?), but from memory their 15" were the hardest hitting and longest ranging 15" ever built and dangerous to anything afloat. IIRC they would penetrate half a meter of armour at 20 k yards!

The barrel wear was excessive however and you would need access to new barrel liners to really utilise the ships.
 
Would indeed have been very interesting. Littorio class were very powerful ships and as I understand the accuracy problems were mainly due to low quality propelleants and shells. Should have been possible to use British propelleant and Shells instead and after some calibration shooting get a ship able to stand up against any opponent. I haven't got the data at hand (Navweapons down?), but from memory their 15" were the hardest hitting and longest ranging 15" ever built and dangerous to anything afloat. IIRC they would penetrate half a meter of armour at 20 k yards!

The barrel wear was excessive however and you would need access to new barrel liners to really utilise the ships.

The guns of the Littorio class were quite good actually. It was the shup's hull that was the main problem, being lightly constructed, as in most Italian warships of the period, intended for the relatively good wheather in the Mediterranean and certainly not the hostile North Atlantic conditions. Armorprotection was very good as well, though negated by the poor performing Pugliese anti torpedo defense system, which caused Littorio to sink in shallow waters at Tarente, after three torpedohits and Vittorio Veneto to get a severe drop in speed and bouyancy temporarily, after just a single torpedohit at Matapan. (Though her damagecontrol was very good and she corrected the list and repaired the boilers quickly to get away soon after.)
 
The Littorio class had the best furniture. You can just picture the officers with their gelato and expresso here in Littorio's wardroom.

interior-of-battleship-roma.jpg
 
So you would need Italy to take Malta by a surprise attack as soon as it entered the war. This would encourage Spain to enter the war, as well as making (a) the conquest/neutralisation of Gibraltar easier and (b) any passage to/from the Atlantic more feasible. It would make some sense for German surface ships to enter the Med as the German U-boats in the Med were quite successful out of all proportion to their numbers, compared to Italian ships. Maybe the German ships would be more successful than the Italians? The presence of the German ships would make the Italians take more risks with their big ships and also make the Germans give them the necessary supplies for more aggressive operations. Maybe the Germans would give the Italians their radar sets, that helped them avoid the RN early in the war. Not that the Italians didn't have a lot of bad luck and actually had about equal honours at times.
 
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