Prior to WW1 the Brazilian navy acquired dreadnoughts of the Minas Geraes class but suffered from some buyer’s remorse. They sold the Rio de Janeiro / Agincourt. I believe they considered selling the Minas Geraes too, but I’ve never seen it discussed whether this was of concern to major powers while WW1 was ongoing. I would have thought the Royal Navy would have been interested in buying these British-constructed ships to support their initially modest margin of superiority over the Germans. Additionally (although this is a bit more far fetched) I wonder if there was any concern they could be bought by the Germans, especially post-Coronel. I can imagine a scenario where the Falklands goes slightly differently, and von Spee’s damaged cruisers are interned in South America but their crews travel to Brazil to man a reflagged Minas Geraes kind of like CSS Alabama. Even without the crews of the East Asia squadron, I believe that contemporaneously the Admiralty was concerned German merchant marine crews stuck in neutral ports could be refitting their ships to raiders - what if they tried buying Minas Geraes from cash-strapped Brazil? How does the Royal Navy react to a possibly operational (I believe the maintenance issues were well known) dreadnought in the South Atlantic when the surface naval campaign is most tenuous?
Battleship Minas Geraes sold during WW1
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Deleted member 160141
Buying the Minas Geraes would be unlikely. They only took Resadiye and Sultan Osman-i-evvel because they were free prizes for the taking, and Almirante Latorre belonged to an ally and had 14" guns. 12"ers were starting to become obsolete and forking over several million for one such ship would be very a uneconomical use of vital money.
Any such purchased ship would have to cross an ocean of British patrol ships and somehow bypass the Grand Fleet. If it were discovered en route, it would be run down and mobbed by the battlecruisers; if it weren't, it would be set upon by the Grand Fleet at its destination. It would have to be accompanied by a collier in case it had to make a long detour. It would be uneconomical to use it as a raider just because fielding it would cost more fuel than it could sink, and it would be very easy to follow back to its home base after any attack. Also, the monumental quantities of coal it would require just can't be provided; German colonial bases can't support that sort of load, and you can hardly use neutral ports to coal up while raiding. Any such raiding career would only be as long as the amount of time it had until it ran out of coal.
The only use for Minas Geraes would be in the North Sea, where it would be no better than any other battleship. It'd be a Kaiser or Konig except with lesser armor; better than nothing, but not a great boon by any means.
They'd probably divert 2-4 additional battlecruisers down south to reinforce Invincible and Inflexible, and then mob it.
Why would Britain need to buy them? As it was they had already beaten the Germans in the naval arms race and had numerical superiority. With larger ships with bigger guns to boot. The Brazilian battleships with their 12 inch guns were a generation, if not two behind. And with Brazil entering the war later on the ships could be sent to help the RN in a pinch
As for the Germans I don't think it would be very practical for them to get the ships. Assuming Von Spee does make it to Brazil buying one of the ships for continuing operations would be all but guaranteed suicide for his men. Britain would certainly be able to send more than overwhelming strength against his single ship. And a large and even decently slow battleship is unlikely to be able to make the journey from Brazil to Germany without a run in with the RN blockade.
But that does not mean no one would want the ships. During the early war France for example might take the ships. Before the Italian entry into the war on the side of the entente there was a fear they would join the central powers. Against a combined Austro-Italian fleet the french battle line would be hard pressed to defeat. And with their latest ships cancelled because of the war France may buy up the ships to even the odds slightly.
Greece may also have a crack at the ships. Especially after the arrival of the Yavus in Istanbul.
Similarly if there is more posturing and buildup before the war a neutral country could buy them. The Netherlands, Spain or another smaller power
If you really want the ships to go to either Britain or Germany though then a more protracted buildup to the war where it was obvious a fight was coming to everyone then one or both powers may try to get the ships. If for no other reason than to keep them out of the others hands.
As for the Germans I don't think it would be very practical for them to get the ships. Assuming Von Spee does make it to Brazil buying one of the ships for continuing operations would be all but guaranteed suicide for his men. Britain would certainly be able to send more than overwhelming strength against his single ship. And a large and even decently slow battleship is unlikely to be able to make the journey from Brazil to Germany without a run in with the RN blockade.
But that does not mean no one would want the ships. During the early war France for example might take the ships. Before the Italian entry into the war on the side of the entente there was a fear they would join the central powers. Against a combined Austro-Italian fleet the french battle line would be hard pressed to defeat. And with their latest ships cancelled because of the war France may buy up the ships to even the odds slightly.
Greece may also have a crack at the ships. Especially after the arrival of the Yavus in Istanbul.
Similarly if there is more posturing and buildup before the war a neutral country could buy them. The Netherlands, Spain or another smaller power
If you really want the ships to go to either Britain or Germany though then a more protracted buildup to the war where it was obvious a fight was coming to everyone then one or both powers may try to get the ships. If for no other reason than to keep them out of the others hands.
The Royal Navy could buy it to simply keep it out of the hands of enemies. (or potential enemies like Italy)
Also, diverting an additional 2-4 battlecruisers to South Atlantic is of potentially strategic significance. In addition to Invincible and Inflexible, Australia and Princess Royal were also covering von Spee’s escape routes. Sending an additional 4 battlecruisers away from the home islands in late 1914 means leaving one (maybe 2 if the working up Tiger is counted) battlecruiser in the North Sea. That’s a point where Seydlitz/Von der Tann/Moltke get the margin of superiority to raid the British coast uncontested, sink the armed merchant cruisers conducting the distant blockade at will, or break out into the Atlantic themselves.
I’m also not sure coaling is strictly the problem. I believe belligerents could and did coal from neutral ports. Goeben coaled from neutral Messina after bombarding French Tunisia at the beginning of the war, and von Spee put into Valparaiso after Coronel. The problem is not being able to stay long enough to conduct repairs of battle damage, making your position known to the enemy, and maybe having the hard cash to buy the coal. I’m actually not sure about the last point - did Germany have gold or credit in the Americas?
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Selling a warship to a nation at war is a violation of neutrality, per The Hague 1907. That won't stop a sale, but unlike selling artillery, uniforms, munitions, etc, which IS allowed by private companies, warships are NOT.
Just one more thing to consider. Britain and Germany more or less discarded the treaties, but would Brazil?
Just one more thing to consider. Britain and Germany more or less discarded the treaties, but would Brazil?
Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes - Wikipedia
Why would anyone buy that hunk of junk?
Deleted member 160141
I would've seriously bought it perhaps around 1910 or '12, and maybe as a hobby afterward because it does look damn fine.Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Why would anyone buy that hunk of junk?
Another question about treaties: could foreign nationals be used to crew warships? The German crew of the Goeben were nominally sailors of the Ottoman Empire for example. But I think if the São Paulo and Minas Geraes are bought on the eve of the war in some last minute diplomatic skulduggery, the main problem is raising a crew. The German navy can’t just materialize 2000 sailors a hemisphere away. If a skeleton officer complement could command the battleships (from the cruiser Dresden, etc), was it legal to recruit foreign nationals? Like offering a signing bonus to Brazilian crew members to serve the German flag? Things like the French Foreign Legion existed and if anything “sailors of fortune” have even more precedent than “soldiers of fortune” but I think during this time frame privateering was a major subject of international law.
Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes - Wikipedia
Why would anyone buy that hunk of junk?
For the British I would think it would be trivial to conduct a refit and return the ships to fighting order because they built the ships in the first place. The story of boilers failing is from 1918 anyway, years after a 1914 scenario. The British had a fair margin of superiority IOTL and in retrospect it was good enough, but in 1914 I’m not sure that was so obvious. Even if the British didn’t really want the ships themselves, they might prefer taking them “off the market” so they couldn’t be sold to the vacillating Italians or self-interested Japanese. Or even (super exotic scenario) the Russian navy buys the ships! I’m sure the British would have been thrilled about a Russian navy in pseudo-exile running around the Atlantic or trying to intimidate neutrals in the Mediterranean.
No, they're refitting their own ships, and and they need any extra dock space they may have for potential repairs.
If British dock space capacity was maxed out and incapable of supporting more capital ships, how come they commissioned a dozen-odd dreadnoughts and battlecruisers over the course of the war, and occasionally conducted major repairs of battle damaged ships?
Grand Admiral Thrawn
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"She'll make point five past slow speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've added some special modifications myself." Captain of ship to visiting British delegation.Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes - Wikipedia
Why would anyone buy that hunk of junk?
Thank you for proving my point.
"Why is the bow held on with zip ties?"
"Those are drift stitches, each one adds 20 horsepower"
If the British needed dreadnoughts in the North Sea that badly, they would've brought some of the French or Italian deathtraps that were keeping the Austrians cooped in the Adriatic, there were a combined 13 to the 4 Tegetthoffs, you could probably pull 4 out and be fine. As for your scenario with the Germans buying a BB from Brazil, why would the Brazilians do this? Sure, they get some cash... and a war with multiple world powers, with other South American nations likely joining the Entente to get some ex-Brazilian land.