Battle of Sirp Sindigi (1364) a Christian Victory

Dirk

Banned
So in OTL the Battle of Sirp Sindigi was fought between a coalition of Serbs and Hungarians, against the rising Ottoman power in Europe.

The Turks won and the flower of the Serbian nobility was killed, to the point where this battle, along with the Battle of Maritsa seven years later, are considered even more decisive and disastrous than the more famous Battle of Kosovo.

By way of different battle dispositions/weather (literally butterfly effect), and some other happy accidents, this could have easily ended differently, in victory for the Europeans. Perhaps this victory could lead to a sequence of events driving the Turks out of Europe, and a strong Serbian nobleman might forge a state as powerful as Dusan the Mighty's, and perhaps even strong enough to take Constantinople off of the Greeks' hands?
 
There is a lot of confusion of whether this battle even happened (ie. is it the same thing as Maritsa) at what it was like. It seems that, if there even was a battle in 1364, it did not have any decisive consequences, and the real catastrophe happened at Maritsa in 1371.

Anyway, if the Christians win, and drive the Ottomans back into Asia Minor, they probably won't be replaced by any single strong empire.

Serbia will revive some of its old strength under the Mrnjavcevic dynasty, but they will have to work hard to undo the previous decade of decentralization and subdue possible rival claimants to the throne. They definitely won't be conquering Constantinople any time soon, if at all. I imagine that, after the dust settles, there will be a small new Christian state in Thrace - with a Serbian ruler, but mostly independent from everyone (and loosely gravitating towards the Byzantines).
 

Dirk

Banned
There is a lot of confusion of whether this battle even happened (ie. is it the same thing as Maritsa) at what it was like. It seems that, if there even was a battle in 1364, it did not have any decisive consequences, and the real catastrophe happened at Maritsa in 1371.

Anyway, if the Christians win, and drive the Ottomans back into Asia Minor, they probably won't be replaced by any single strong empire.

Serbia will revive some of its old strength under the Mrnjavcevic dynasty, but they will have to work hard to undo the previous decade of decentralization and subdue possible rival claimants to the throne. They definitely won't be conquering Constantinople any time soon, if at all. I imagine that, after the dust settles, there will be a small new Christian state in Thrace - with a Serbian ruler, but mostly independent from everyone (and loosely gravitating towards the Byzantines).

I'm sure you're right about the low possibility of a strong state in the region, but this battle does seem very decisive. Almost ten thousand allied troops died and it directly led to the fall of the Bulgarian Empire to the Ottomans.

In any case, history is full enough of underdog stories and unlikely happy coincidences that it's at least possible for the Serbs to be wanked in the eventuality of a victory here.
 
I'm sure you're right about the low possibility of a strong state in the region, but this battle does seem very decisive. Almost ten thousand allied troops died and it directly led to the fall of the Bulgarian Empire to the Ottomans.

I might have phrased it badly; I agree that this battle was very decisive, but believe it happened in 1371. And I have no idea exactly what happened in 1364.
In any case, history is full enough of underdog stories and unlikely happy coincidences that it's at least possible for the Serbs to be wanked in the eventuality of a victory here.

True - the bad camping discipline of the Serbs/Christians in this battle is a great example of such a happy coincidence (happy for the Ottomans, not really for anyone else...)

Even a simple preservation of the 1360s state of affairs (which is the least that would certainly happen) qualifies as a Serb-wank; pretty much everything between Belgrade and Athens remains under the control of the Serbian Empire and various Serbian petty lords and claimant-Emperors. Add to that the Despotate of Thrace (or however it would be called) established on Ottoman ruins by the Serbian regent's brother and that's not bad at all.

Bulgaria might enjoy some territorial expansion in this scenario too, by making a vassal out of Wallachia. But the Wallachian Prince would be Bulgaria's kingmaker so that's good for them only in some ways. Unless of course they both just get rolled over and vassalized by Hungary.
 
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