Battle of manzikert: Byzantines win.

What if the byzantines won the battle of manzikert in 1071? would the empire stop its decline? or would this simply delay its decline? what would this mean for the Seljuks of rum? I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
 
Well the Sultanate of Rum wouldn't arise, that's for certain. I don't know enough about Romanos Diogenes to say anything definitively on this, but I believe he was in the process of reforming the army, so that should go on I presume.
 
No First Crusades, as we know it. And therefore no Crusades (including 1204) as they happened OTL
It was made, at first, upon the call of Byzantines to help them with Turks reaching the aegean shores. Without Turks conquering Anatolia, you simply won't have this call, and Latin knights would more likely battle in Spain, Sicily, Africa, possibly having a quicker Reconquista, and a lasting Kingdom of Africa (which OTL, crumbeled after Roger II death)
 

katchen

Banned
Earlier and more extensive Northern Crusades. Maybe more Teutonic Knights. Maybe conquest of Novgorod by Teutonic Knights and extension of Latin Christianity to Sudzal (Muscovy) and Mordovia east into Ugria and Siberia. No Russian Tsardom. Russia forced to become Catholic and a lot smaller--possibly part of Greater Poland.
 
The Mongol invasion of Southwest Asia will certainly look a bit different with a very different set of players to oppose them or collaborate with them.
 
Earlier and more extensive Northern Crusades. Maybe more Teutonic Knights. Maybe conquest of Novgorod by Teutonic Knights and extension of Latin Christianity to Sudzal (Muscovy) and Mordovia east into Ugria and Siberia. No Russian Tsardom. Russia forced to become Catholic and a lot smaller--possibly part of Greater Poland.

Why on earth would the Teutonic Knights be able to do that when they failed OTL? Russia is stronger in this period compared to when it was under effective Mongolian vassalage.
 
Earlier and more extensive Northern Crusades. Maybe more Teutonic Knights. Maybe conquest of Novgorod by Teutonic Knights and extension of Latin Christianity to Sudzal (Muscovy) and Mordovia east into Ugria and Siberia. No Russian Tsardom. Russia forced to become Catholic and a lot smaller--possibly part of Greater Poland.

Without Crusade appearing as a thing, I doubt you'll have religious expeditions against Christians even if heretical.
See, if at first Crusades were a way to make coexist violence and military-style life of medieval nobility with the desire of peace from Church and population by (I quote from memory) allowing "the ones that fought here their brothers, to fight for the glory of the Christ".
It didn't sanctified violence, but make it legit, when it was confined to the really special situation of Spain.

Without this, it would really be hard to have the military campaigns you describe.
 
The Byzantines would still be open to decline or renewal just like any other culture or state. It is not doomed to be wiped out, nor is it destined to forever remain a great empire.

However, victory at Manzikert means Byzantium holds onto Anatolia for a very long time, giving it much greater defense in depth and resources. It probably secures peace on its eastern frontier for one or more generations allowing it to secure the Balkans as well.

The Seljuks likely turn their attention directly south and west against the Fatimids. Eventually the state breaks up - perhaps much sooner with such a defeat at Manzikert. The area that becomes "Turkey" may be in northwestern Iran along the Caspian instead of Anatolia. This creates lots of problems for the Persians, but it is conceivable any future Persian state throws them out back to Central Asia.

Having a strong, viable Byzantine Empire as it enters the High Middle Ages means the Empire might take advantage of the general increase in learning and institution building taking place in Western and Central Europe. The Byzantines are culturally superior in many ways to the "Franks", but certain Frankish intellectual life is more dynamic. We may see increased ties between the two halves of the Empire - German and Greek.

The Gregorian Reformers of the Catholic Church are looking for some kind of project to allow them to claim leadership of the Latin Christian world. Without announcing a crusade (techinically an armed pilgrimage at this point) to Jersualem, they'll look for some other cause.

There's even a chance the Papacy still asks for people to go to Jerusalen if Byzantium is not able to secure the pilgrimage routes in Palestine. It's just that the Empire is much better positioned to control and/or assist the crusade to better achieve its aims. Perhaps the Latins still form the crusader states, but are actual vassals to the Emperor rather than independent lords.
 
Not to blow my own trumpet, but I'm going to blow my own trumpet.

Isaac's Empire is largely based around an "avoiding Manzikert" scenario for the POD. It's pretty good, so I hear...
 
Isaac I living longer has a lot more consequences than just that, which is part of why certain Byzantophiles agree with you, BG. :D

But it is definitely a good exploration of the period, especially in version II.
 
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