Battle of Jutland Alternative Outcome?

What if Jutland was a Battlecruiser squadrion engagement only

This assumes everything IOTL except that Scheer's main fleet wouldn't have sortied out. Perhaps Hipper has been ordered to raid the British Coast and was turned back at Jutland against a superior force, perhaps he was to set his own trap to lead British ships onto his own mines instead of the rest of the High Sea Fleet.

IOTL it would mean the British would have lost at least 2 battle-cruisers for at least none on the German side assuming that Thoma's Queen Elizabeth's and Beatty's squadron didn't just catch up to Hipper and cut him off. How many more ships however would have been lost on either side in this battle to the South and when would one side or the other break engagement? (Pretty sure if it was Run to the South - the Jellicoe's fleet albeit it sortied, would not have played any role in the battle.)

What effect does this have on the war? Unrestricted submarine warfare?
A second (or in this case) first dreadnaught battle with a different or similar outcome?


Another question that assumes both sides IOTL are out in full force is, instead of hitting the British battle-cruiser squadron head on, what if Scheer devised a plan to trap Beatty's force, perhaps crossing the T or splitting his force into 3 squadrons (8 dread/8 dread/5 pre dread) to pincer Beatty?

Could either of these events perhaps led to a greater German victory that would have changed the course of the war? (lengthening it, shortening it, or with a different outcome overall.)

Thoughts about the possibilities?
 
What if Jutland was a Battlecruiser squadrion engagement only

This assumes everything IOTL except that Scheer's main fleet wouldn't have sortied out. Perhaps Hipper has been ordered to raid the British Coast and was turned back at Jutland against a superior force, perhaps he was to set his own trap to lead British ships onto his own mines instead of the rest of the High Sea Fleet.

IOTL it would mean the British would have lost at least 2 battle-cruisers for at least none on the German side assuming that Thoma's Queen Elizabeth's and Beatty's squadron didn't just catch up to Hipper and cut him off. How many more ships however would have been lost on either side in this battle to the South and when would one side or the other break engagement? (Pretty sure if it was Run to the South - the Jellicoe's fleet albeit it sortied, would not have played any role in the battle.)

What effect does this have on the war? Unrestricted submarine warfare?
A second (or in this case) first dreadnaught battle with a different or similar outcome?


Another question that assumes both sides IOTL are out in full force is, instead of hitting the British battle-cruiser squadron head on, what if Scheer devised a plan to trap Beatty's force, perhaps crossing the T or splitting his force into 3 squadrons (8 dread/8 dread/5 pre dread) to pincer Beatty?

Could either of these events perhaps led to a greater German victory that would have changed the course of the war? (lengthening it, shortening it, or with a different outcome overall.)

Thoughts about the possibilities?

dont have time to comment in any detail, but surely if Scheer splits his forces like that then then Beatty just plows through the pre-dreads without stopping

Its a tricky one as Beatty's BC's have a nominal speed advantage over the HSF BC's while the QE's have a nominal speed advantage over the HSF BB's which means if Beatty wants to get out of dodge he probably has the speed to manage it - the germans BC's will have to try and lame a few ships but they'll take a pummelling from the QE's (who remember did have the opportunity for gunnery training and had none of the lax anti-flash procedures in place and also had the biggest guns)
 
Not sure about 8/8/5. Maybe something like 6/6/(4+5).

they had 16 dreadnaughts and 6 pre dreadnaughts at jutland, along with 5 battlecruiser.

I've just questioned how Scheer's entered the battle, not making use of any potential surprise to his advantage (both sides had no idea that the other side was out in full force.)
 
dont have time to comment in any detail, but surely if Scheer splits his forces like that then then Beatty just plows through the pre-dreads without stopping

Its a tricky one as Beatty's BC's have a nominal speed advantage over the HSF BC's while the QE's have a nominal speed advantage over the HSF BB's which means if Beatty wants to get out of dodge he probably has the speed to manage it - the germans BC's will have to try and lame a few ships but they'll take a pummelling from the QE's (who remember did have the opportunity for gunnery training and had none of the lax anti-flash procedures in place and also had the biggest guns)

hmm, here is another thought, what if Scheer deployed to cross the T. Speed would indeed favor the British getting out of the mess but chances are that this particular segment of the battle becomes more favorable for the Germans. Although the total outcome is still questionable.
 
dont have time to comment in any detail, but surely if Scheer splits his forces like that then then Beatty just plows through the pre-dreads without stopping

Its a tricky one as Beatty's BC's have a nominal speed advantage over the HSF BC's while the QE's have a nominal speed advantage over the HSF BB's which means if Beatty wants to get out of dodge he probably has the speed to manage it - the germans BC's will have to try and lame a few ships but they'll take a pummelling from the QE's (who remember did have the opportunity for gunnery training and had none of the lax anti-flash procedures in place and also had the biggest guns)

I have no doubt that Beatty would plow through the 5 minute ships if Scheer split his forces. However after that, he would need to contend to dreadnaughts on both his flanks and the battlecruisers in front of him. it wouldn't be an easy fight. Though it seems the Germans would have more to lose in this scenario (albeit obsolete ships).

hmm, here is another thought, what if Scheer deployed to cross the T. Speed would indeed favor the British getting out of the mess but chances are that this particular segment of the battle becomes more favorable for the Germans. Although the total outcome is still questionable.
 
What if Jutland was a Battlecruiser squadrion engagement only

This assumes everything IOTL except that Scheer's main fleet wouldn't have sortied out. Perhaps Hipper has been ordered to raid the British Coast and was turned back at Jutland against a superior force, perhaps he was to set his own trap to lead British ships onto his own mines instead of the rest of the High Sea Fleet.

IOTL it would mean the British would have lost at least 2 battle-cruisers for at least none on the German side assuming that Thoma's Queen Elizabeth's and Beatty's squadron didn't just catch up to Hipper and cut him off. How many more ships however would have been lost on either side in this battle to the South and when would one side or the other break engagement? (Pretty sure if it was Run to the South - the Jellicoe's fleet albeit it sortied, would not have played any role in the battle.)

What effect does this have on the war? Unrestricted submarine warfare?
A second (or in this case) first dreadnaught battle with a different or similar outcome?


Another question that assumes both sides IOTL are out in full force is, instead of hitting the British battle-cruiser squadron head on, what if Scheer devised a plan to trap Beatty's force, perhaps crossing the T or splitting his force into 3 squadrons (8 dread/8 dread/5 pre dread) to pincer Beatty?

Could either of these events perhaps led to a greater German victory that would have changed the course of the war? (lengthening it, shortening it, or with a different outcome overall.)

Thoughts about the possibilities?

As has been mentioned Beatty has a Strength advantage in Battle Cruisers, Crusiers and Destroyers + the 4 best Battleships on the planet in the form of the 5th Squadron's 4 Queen Elizabeths.

This Squadron operated as part of the battlecrusier fleet so I cannot see how you can discount it!

So leaving it as just a 'Battle Crusier' action Hipper is in big trouble because unlike Beatty's Squadron Hugh Evan Thomas's had no problems shooting straight on the day and are very unlikely to go boom under 11" rifle fire.

In all honesty Hipper would probably run as soon as the 5th appeared and started shooting as per OTL

So its likely that the RN loses 2 BCs as per OTL and several of the German BCs are badly damaged - and if any are crippled they are lost as their would be no run to the North when Sheer turns up (and fewer opportunities for Beatty to bugger up his signals) and those crippled ships would be overwhelmed.

Even without the 5th turning up once the intitial confusion was sorted out the RN BCs did start to range in and start straddling their oppoinents - however Barnham getting a hit on Von der Tann inside of a minute of opening fire at long range and by the time the rest of the 5th Squadron had turned up Hipper started his run to the South.

Had this not happened ie the 5th does not arrive then the two fleets continue to slug it out for longer and with the British BCs now hitting their opponents with their heavier guns expect to see more damage accrued on the German ships.

So I do not see any more losses on the British side but possible some losses on the german side.

Remember that previous Battle Cruiser actions had gone the RNs way and despite the early loss of Indomitable and Queen Mary Hipper is now out numbered and out gunned.

Ultimately he runs.
 
As has been mentioned Beatty has a Strength advantage in Battle Cruisers, Crusiers and Destroyers + the 4 best Battleships on the planet in the form of the 5th Squadron's 4 Queen Elizabeths.

This Squadron operated as part of the battlecrusier fleet so I cannot see how you can discount it!

So leaving it as just a 'Battle Crusier' action Hipper is in big trouble because unlike Beatty's Squadron Hugh Evan Thomas's had no problems shooting straight on the day and are very unlikely to go boom under 11" rifle fire.

In all honesty Hipper would probably run as soon as the 5th appeared and started shooting as per OTL

So its likely that the RN loses 2 BCs as per OTL and several of the German BCs are badly damaged - and if any are crippled they are lost as their would be no run to the North when Sheer turns up (and fewer opportunities for Beatty to bugger up his signals) and those crippled ships would be overwhelmed.

Even without the 5th turning up once the intitial confusion was sorted out the RN BCs did start to range in and start straddling their oppoinents - however Barnham getting a hit on Von der Tann inside of a minute of opening fire at long range and by the time the rest of the 5th Squadron had turned up Hipper started his run to the South.

Had this not happened ie the 5th does not arrive then the two fleets continue to slug it out for longer and with the British BCs now hitting their opponents with their heavier guns expect to see more damage accrued on the German ships.

So I do not see any more losses on the British side but possible some losses on the german side.

Remember that previous Battle Cruiser actions had gone the RNs way and despite the early loss of Indomitable and Queen Mary Hipper is now out numbered and out gunned.

Ultimately he runs.

No question that Hipper runs with or without backup (he was outnumbered from the very start 6 battle - cruisers to 5).

By the time the QE's caught up, this would have been 4 battle cruisers and 4 battleships of the Royal navy against 5 German battle cruisers. (Indefatigable and Queen Mary were gone)
[Note: Hood's 3 battle cruisers in the 3rd battle cruiser squadron probably wouldn't have caught up if there is no run to the north.]

Now, on the German side, I'd expect to see Von der Tann and the Moltke (the rear) sustaining heavy hits and perhaps one or both of them sinking, albeit in a prolonged fight (as OTL showed in the Run to the South and the suicide charge, they were a lot more durable than their British counterparts).

That being said visibility still favored the Germans during this battle. And I think there would have been possibilities for the destruction of the Lion, Princess Royal and Tiger who would be in separate one on one duels with the other three German battle cruisers. Without the actions of people like Francis Harvey, it is quite possible, we could have seen at least one more or in the worst case scenario, all three of the battle cruisers going up. (and losing the flag could have problems of its own).
The threat to the New Zealand would probably be diminished as the arrival of the four QE's diluted the targets at the back of the British line.

The durability of the German battle cruisers also makes me think that perhaps aside from the rear guard, most of them could make it into German waters relatively unscathed, at which case the British would have to break off in fear of mines - unless Beatty is crazy enough to continue. (assuming he isn't killed).

Ultimately, I think the Germans indeed would have suffered more loses in a continued run down south, but it would be equally costly, perhaps more to the British.

Perhaps 2 to 2 trade for this segment of the battle, to make it a total of 4 UK battle cruiser losses against 2 German ones (barely a slight greater victory for Germany than OTL jutland) but without the psychological effect or the damage inflicted on the HSF (can't say the same for Hipper's squadron which would probably be in drydock for a while.)
 
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