Battle of France WIs

Anaxagoras

Banned
The sheer incompetence of the French in 1940, the near-total divorce from reality of their high command, and especially their ridiculously slow command control system compared with the efficient and swift system of the Germans, makes me wonder if the Allies had any chance at all of winning the Battle of France.

Two possibilities come to mind, one that could have happened any time during the month before the battle, and one which could have happened right in the middle of it.

1. WI Gamelin decides to forego the foolish plan to send the 7th Army into southern Holland and instead keeps it as a strategic reserve, which was the original intention and would have been the best course of action. Conceviably, it might have been sent to reinforce the Meuse line and plug the gap the panzers tore in the French line there.

2. On the afternoon of May 14, the French actually had a golden opportunity to mount a devastating counter attack at Sedan, when two of the three panzer divisions formed up in a line facing westward, with only a single infantry regiment protecting their left (southern) flank. At that moment, the French 3rd Armored and 3rd Mechanized Divisions were forming up directly to the south of them in preparation for a counter attack. Had it gone forward, it would have smashed into the exposed German flank and possibly rolled up the German line. But, as happened far too often, the attack was cancelled for reasons that are unclear.

Any other ideas?
 
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What about a "Double Bluff" kind of gambit, where the French, confident that the Germans will not attack the Maginot Line, leave it lightly manned? Those extra forces could form the Reserve needed to stop a German breakthrough.

Another option might be for France to simply ape Germany's idea of concentrating tanks for itself, and then use the concentration of tanks to cut off the German Panzergroup when it reaches the Channel.

The Battle of France could be an Allied Victory. Such a situation would almost certainly lead to continued Italian Neutrality. A counterfactual French 1941 offensive may well bog down, but that's a lot better than France simply crumbling as in OTL.
 
You would feel the simplest idea to avert disaster would have been to heavily bombard the narrow Ardennes region whilst German armour passed through, historically the Germans had real problems with traffic and a large amount of their armour could have become sitting ducks. Not sure if it would have had a massive impact but it would severely disrupt things and probably cause a good deal of German panic as well.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
You would feel the simplest idea to avert disaster would have been to heavily bombard the narrow Ardennes region whilst German armour passed through, historically the Germans had real problems with traffic and a large amount of their armour could have become sitting ducks. Not sure if it would have had a massive impact but it would severely disrupt things and probably cause a good deal of German panic as well.

Indeed. The panzers had to crowd together on the roads through the region for several days. If the French had had any brains, they would have deployed light cavalry with mobile 75 mm artillery pieces (that would have made excellent anti-tank guns, especially against the Mark 1 and Mark 2 panzers), on the flanks to stage hit-and-run attacks.
 
France could have held on by committing to more sorties and ruthlessly employing ALL their aircraft. Many hundreds of aircraft never even saw combat for France when they could have bombed out Guderian/Wittershiem/Hoth's supply lines and isolated them from the rest of the army.

Before everyone points out the failure of the British attacks on the Sedan bridges please note that attacking a stationary bridge has always been messy even to modern airstrikes. What I am suggesting is attacking the tail of the German advance as was successfully done at various point throughout the war
 
Even from the point of simply comparing the opposing forces in matter of quantity and quality of materiel , Fall Gelb cannot be described as nothing less than a wizard operation . Had it failed, people would have felt vindicated to declare its unfeasibility and sheer audacity, just like they bury any poor sod who comes up with an ATL "Operation You must never utter lest You invoke the wrath of Bel-Shamharoth" under a s***storm of criticism
 

mowque

Banned
I want to see an even more successful Battle of France (from the Axis POV) just for a change of pace.
 
How about a complete and utter annihilation of the BEF together with the RAF squadrons sent across the channel?

And Paris falls in 3 days, and Rommel takes Churchill hostage while he was in the bathroom! :rolleyes:

I just don't see how much more successful they could be:p
 

Cook

Banned
You would feel the simplest idea to avert disaster would have been to heavily bombard the narrow Ardennes region whilst German armour passed through, historically the Germans had real problems with traffic and a large amount of their armour could have become sitting ducks. Not sure if it would have had a massive impact but it would severely disrupt things and probably cause a good deal of German panic as well.

Bomb, not bombard; air not artillary.

The Germans had feared and expected heavy air attacks on their Panzer divisions crossing the Meuse and in the Ardennes.

Instead the French pulled their air force back out of range after the initial air attacks by the Luftwaffe.
 

Cook

Banned
16 June 1940, Winston Churchill proposed a Union between Britain and France. The union would have seen joint policies for defence, foreign affairs, finance and economics.

Such a union would have seen all of France’s overseas territories and forces incorporated into the British Empire after the fall of mainland France. Vichy France would have been still-born.
 
16 June 1940, Winston Churchill proposed a Union between Britain and France. The union would have seen joint policies for defence, foreign affairs, finance and economics.

Such a union would have seen all of France’s overseas territories and forces incorporated into the British Empire after the fall of mainland France. Vichy France would have been still-born.
Err... Vichy France would probably still exist within the Hexagon (Metropole), but you may be right about e.g. North Africa. If North Africa was Allied, that would be HUGE difference.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
16 June 1940, Winston Churchill proposed a Union between Britain and France. The union would have seen joint policies for defence, foreign affairs, finance and economics.

Such a union would have seen all of France’s overseas territories and forces incorporated into the British Empire after the fall of mainland France. Vichy France would have been still-born.

Yes, but I think that it's essentially ASB under any reasonable circumstances. I think Churchill only proposed it as a sign of British determination, hoping to buck up the French to keep them in the fight.
 

Cook

Banned
Yes, but I think that it's essentially ASB under any reasonable circumstances. I think Churchill only proposed it as a sign of British determination, hoping to buck up the French to keep them in the fight.

I think it has to be treated far more seriously than ASB.

Parliamentary Debates said:

BRITISH OFFER OF ANGLO-FRENCH UNION, JUNE 16, 1940
[Great Britain, Parliament, Parliamentary Debates, Fifth Series, Volume 365. House of Commons Official Report Eleventh Volume of Session 1939-40, (London, His Majesty's Stationery Office, 1940), columns 701-702.]
At this most fateful moment in the history of the modern world the Governments of the United Kingdom and the French Republic make this declaration of indissoluble union and unyielding resolution in their common defence of justice and freedom, against subjection to a system which reduces mankind to a life of robots and slaves.
The two Governments declare that France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations but one Franco-British Union. The constitution of the Union will provide for joint organs of defence, foreign, financial, and economic policies. Every citizen of France will enjoy immediately citizenship of Great Britain, every British subject will become a citizen of France.
Both countries will share responsibility for the repair the devastation of war, wherever it occurs in their territories, and the resources of both shall be equally, and as one, applied to that purpose.
During the war there shall be a single war Cabinet, and all the forces of Britain and France, whether on land, sea, or in the air, will be placed under its direction. It will govern from wherever it best can. The two Parliaments will be formally associated.
The nations of the British Empire are already forming new armies. France will keep her available forces in the field, on the sea, and in the air.
The Union appeals to the United States to fortify the economic resources of the Allies and to bring her powerful material aid to the common cause.
The Union will concentrate its whole energy against the power of the enemy no matter where the battle may be. And thus we shall conquer.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1940/1940-06-16d.html

http://postalheritage.org.uk/exhibitions/onlineexhibitions/ww2stamps/anglofrench
 
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