Battle of Britain - Fighter Command Withdrawal

[Ian Hathaway]

I'm sure most have heard this one ...

During the BoB there was a plan to withdraw units of the RAF to a position north of the Thames, outside of the effective range of the Bf 109, if things were getting tough.

This plan was to enable the RAF to continue the defence of Britain but in a lesser way, regroup and repair so they had the best chance of disrupting the expected invasion forces on and above the beaches.

At what point do people feel this would have been carried out?

 

[Shaby]

The best bet would be LW keeps up the attacks on the sector airfields. They keep it up and by mid-September, RAF position is untenable. The planes are withdrawn to alternate fields and they recuperate. In a week or two RAF returns strengthened and challenges LW again. Meanwhile, LW does not manage to damage British production, defenses or morale appreciably, nor is it able to use its position to push Britain to negotiate a peace. IMHO.

 

[Ian Hathaway]

The best bet would be LW keeps up the attacks on the sector airfields. They keep it up and by mid-September, RAF position is untenable. The planes are withdrawn to alternate fields and they recuperate. In a week or two RAF returns strengthened and challenges LW again. Meanwhile, LW does not manage to damage British production, defenses or morale appreciably, nor is it able to use its position to push Britain to negotiate a peace. IMHO.

So basically what you are saying is when the command and repair facilities are so badly damaged they are no longer able to operate effectively in the South and have to move to safer fields, is that correct?

 

[Just Leo]

Fighter Command didn't have a plan to withdraw units from viable forward bases. Manston and Hawkinge were under steady attacks but Gravesend was barely touched. Aircraft from Gravesend used Hawkinge as a forward base from dawn to dusk, using the undamaged refuelling facilities at Hawkinge to service the aircraft. While there might have been a plan to withdraw, the point at which it might have been required was hardly approached.

 

[Shaby]

So basically what you are saying is when the command and repair facilities are so badly damaged they are no longer able to operate effectively in the South and have to move to safer fields, is that correct?

Well, yeah. With a caveat that Germans never actually achieved this level of damage of the sector airfields. But if they did (if, for example, a Durandal type missile was available to them ) then most likely RAF would seek shelter in the north.

 

[Just Leo]

Well, yeah. With a caveat that Germans never actually achieved this level of damage of the sector airfields. But if they did (if, for example, a Durandal type missile was available to them ) then most likely RAF would seek shelter in the north.

Durandal is designed to destroy concrete runways and lacks effectiveness on grass. Perhaps if the Luftwaffe had JP233, but then, that was a British weapon.

 

[Shaby]

Durandal is designed to destroy concrete runways and lacks effectiveness on grass. Perhaps if the Luftwaffe had JP233, but then, that was a British weapon.

Oh, I thought sector airfields were concrete?

 

[Kongzilla]

My question is this, everybody says that the British would Move further up and into the North outside the reach of the LW, why would the Luftwaffe not just design a plane with a larger gas tank to attack the north and wouldn't the LW push forward the development of the ME 264 or some of the other bombers to put the pressure on the British.

I dunno

 

[Shaby]

My question is this, everybody says that the British would Move further up and into the North outside the reach of the LW, why would the Luftwaffe not just design a plane with a larger gas tank to attack the north and wouldn't the LW push forward the development of the ME 264 or some of the other bombers to put the pressure on the British.

I dunno

Possibly because it would require much foreplanning and actual time to develop and produce such an airplane on a scale necessary? At most they have a period of two or three weeks. Britain was outproducing Germany in terms of first class fighters by August. They don't have time to design and produce a completely new airplane.

 

[Kongzilla]

Could they just add extra fuel tanks.


Anyway, I think the public would wish to surrender. In the other thread someone produced evidence that showed the public wanted to give up to the Germans at the height of the blitz, with the Luftwaffe bombing southern england day and night with pretty much nothing to stop them. I would give up to.

If you can push back barbarossa then you can have the BoB be a practice run for the Luftwaffe and the Ural/Amerika bombers.

 

[MattII]

The thing is, if the Germans are targeting the airfields then they have nothing left over to Blitz the cities with.

 

[Ian Hathaway]

My question is this, everybody says that the British would Move further up and into the North outside the reach of the LW, why would the Luftwaffe not just design a plane with a larger gas tank to attack the north and wouldn't the LW push forward the development of the ME 264 or some of the other bombers to put the pressure on the British.

I dunno

German bombers of the time could reach all parts of Britain, I'd imagine that some form of night time bombing would take place over midlands airfields. They would be a lot less effective but there might be a lucky strike or two to keep the RAF on their toes. Plus the southern fields would still be targets and the reaaction time for the defenders is much slower. I'm not sure that if 11 Group withdrew they would ever be able to return.

 

[Shaby]

German bombers of the time could reach all parts of Britain, I'd imagine that some form of night time bombing would take place over midlands airfields. They would be a lot less effective but there might be a lucky strike or two to keep the RAF on their toes.

They'd be quite lucky to end within a 10 mile circle of any of the airfields at night... Two lucky strikes on an airfield in the night strike? Don't think so.

I'm not sure that if 11 Group withdrew they would ever be able to return.

Quite soon and in overwhelming numbers... By the end of September they'd have 1500 fighters available...

 

[Just Leo]

Oh, I thought sector airfields were concrete?

Biggin Hill was tarmac. Beside the tarmac is.....grass. It was hit 6 times in 3 days and remained operational, except for 2 hours, although only for one squadron, during the worst of it. Had it been just grass, like nearby Gravesend, it might have been harder to find.

 

[Kongzilla]

If they got pulled out of southern england then wouldn't the.radar be blown to smithereens. When the RAF returns wouldn't they be fighting blind

 

[Shaby]

Anyway, I think the public would wish to surrender. In the other thread someone produced evidence that showed the public wanted to give up to the Germans at the height of the blitz, with the Luftwaffe bombing southern england day and night with pretty much nothing to stop them. I would give up to.

Well, rationally speaking, there is no reason for Britain to give up fighting. They out-produced the Germans in many of the key war materials, they were technologically superior and getting more so every day, their homeland was inviolable and they could hold out indefinitely, while watching the Germans simmer in their own sauce. IDK, but I don't see what exactly Germans can offer them in exchange for peace that they don't already have.

If Britain wanted to make that kind of peace, they could have skipped the preliminaries right away and go for it after Poland. If their morale was so fragile, surely they would have made peace in 1942, when all seemed lost? Yet they didn't. So I think they wouldn't in this case.

 

[Shaby]

Biggin Hill was tarmac. Beside the tarmac is.....grass. It was hit 6 times in 3 days and remained operational, except for 2 hours, although only for one squadron, during the worst of it. Had it been just grass, like nearby Gravesend, it might have been harder to find.

Yeah it is very hard to destroy air bases for airplanes that could take off from anywhere.

 

[Kongzilla]

So is there any way for the germans to win the battle of britain. Surely if the germans wanted to they couldbout produce the british

 

[MattII]

If they got pulled out of southern england then wouldn't the.radar be blown to smithereens. When the RAF returns wouldn't they be fighting blind

Well taking down what are basically braced towers is not easy, indeed it moight be easier to kamikaze into them than try to bomb the things, but then you still end up having to deal with Chain Home Low.

So is there any way for the germans to win the battle of britain. Surely if the germans wanted to they couldbout produce the british

They fell behind on pilots and ground-crew more than aircraft.

 

[Ian Hathaway]

They'd be quite lucky to end within a 10 mile circle of any of the airfields at night... Two lucky strikes on an airfield in the night strike? Don't think so.

Reports taken from RAF records ... they show that on this one night alone several airfields were struck by German bombs, I think sometimes people underestimate a pilots ability to find his target in the dark.

"Date: 31st August/1st September 1940

• The landing ground at Tholthorpe was twice attacked, firstly at 2245 hours on 31st August, and the second at 0230 hours on 1st September. The station is still operational although there is a crater 25 feet deep.
• Hornchurch was bombed with incendiary bombs at 1140 hours on 1st September but no damage or casualties occurred.
• At 1540 hours on 1st September Hawkinge and Lympne Aerodromes were dive bombed by 12 Me109. No buildings at Hawkinge were damaged and the aerodrome is still serviceable with care.
• Two attacks were made on Detling Aerodrome on 1st September at 1630 hours and 2300 hours, the wireless mast was damaged, Officers' Mess demolished, and the aerodrome at present is reported to be unserviceable.
• HE bombs were dropped at Newton Downs, Porthcawl Aerodrome at 2240 hours on 1st September, there is no report of damage.
• Two bombs were dropped on Hooton Park Aerodrome on 1st September."