Battle of Ain Jalut, Mongol VIcotry

What if they turned the Mamluks into yet another client peoples and made them help in the conquests?

The Mamelukes, or the Egyptians in general?

The Mamelukes proper are just the army (and some other top offices) - they're a fraction of the population. A mostly dead fraction in this scenario.
 
The Mamelukes, or the Egyptians in general?

The Mamelukes proper are just the army (and some other top offices) - they're a fraction of the population. A mostly dead fraction in this scenario.

Two of their top generals were turkic nomadic people that the Mongols sold into slavery to Egypt. So, ironically, they seeded their own defeat.

Again, would be a great movie. Qutuz is minding his own business living his life as a child in Russia. For dramatic effect, Kitbuqa is the Mongol that sells him into slavery. 20 years later, Qutuz leads the Mamhluk army. Kitbuqa heads a small contingent of the Mongol army. Probably the best revenge fantasy in history.
 
Two of their top generals were turkic nomadic people that the Mongols sold into slavery to Egypt. So, ironically, they seeded their own defeat.

Again, would be a great movie. Qutuz is minding his own business living his life as a child in Russia. For dramatic effect, Kitbuqa is the Mongol that sells him into slavery. 20 years later, Qutuz leads the Mamhluk army. Kitbuqa heads a small contingent of the Mongol army. Probably the best revenge fantasy in history.
Sell it to Hollywood...
 
Would Egypt hold out?
Nope, Egypt would not hold out against the grand army of Hulagu Khan, no way.
In this case Egypt was doomed.
Throughout its history Egypt was somehow protected from the North-East by deserts. But there were A LOT OF times when these deserts were penetrated by the invaders. The Mongols knew the deserts even when they were confined in their Mongolia and were not afraid of them, they crossed the desert terrains many times during their spectacular conquests. So it was not a problem.

When would the Mongols eventually lose steam?
The Mongols would lose steam when the Mongol Empire eventually desintegrates. That would happen in a few years after the conquest of Egypt; give or take. The Il-Khans would fight against the Golden Horde and so instead of world-conquering the Mongols would start squabbling, killing each other.

Would they turn on the Byzantine Empire?
Why not?
It depends on when the Mongols start fighting each other. If the world Mongol Empire has a few more years of stability the Il-Khans might conquer some other territories after taking Egypt. The Byzantine Empire is closer to the Persian centre of the Hulaguid Ulus than the North Africa so it is quite natural way of further expansion.
 
Sell it to Hollywood...

I wish I knew people! I'd love to watch that movie.

If the world Mongol Empire has a few more years of stability the Il-Khans might conquer some other territories after taking Egypt. The Byzantine Empire is closer to the Persian centre of the Hulaguid Ulus than the North Africa so it is quite natural way of further expansion.

What if, after an Egyptian victory and a successful raiding exhibition in Poland, the Persian and Russian Khanates ally to conquer Byzantium? Does this open the door for a larger EUropean invasion? THis seems to me the most realistic way the Mongols can almost get world domination.
 
What if, after an Egyptian victory and a successful raiding exhibition in Poland, the Persian and Russian Khanates ally to conquer Byzantium? Does this open the door for a larger EUropean invasion? THis seems to me the most realistic way the Mongols can almost get world domination.
There was no need for the Il-Khans and the Golden Horde to ally to conquer Byzantium. The Il-Khans were able to do that alone without any assistance.
And at the same time the door for a larger European invasion was open for the Ulus of Juchi - they might conquer good chunks of Europe: Hungary, Bohemia, Poland, Germany.
It was doable for the Mongols but it was implausible at that moment because even with the current Great Khan alcoholic still alive in the depth of Asia - the tensions between the Hulaguids and the Juchids were coming to the critical point when the armed conflict for the spheres of influence was inevitable. The main problem for the Mongols was not the Byzantines or the Germans - it was the Mongols themselves.
It is a nature of things - any nation conquering so much inevitably starts squabbling among themselves.

But anyway the Mongols were closer to the world domination than any other nation before or after.
 
I continue to assert the Mongols conquering large stretches of Europe for any kind of extended period of time is absurd. They have to deal with heavily fortified land that isn't optimal for their primary tactics. Hungary was some of the best territory in Europe for them and they still couldn't subdue the forts.
 
I continue to assert the Mongols conquering large stretches of Europe for any kind of extended period of time is absurd. They have to deal with heavily fortified land that isn't optimal for their primary tactics. Hungary was some of the best territory in Europe for them and they still couldn't subdue the forts.

You continue to neglect the fact that the best fortified in the world were the lands of the Hassasines of Persia / Near East. Yet they were not able to hold against the Mongols.

Europe was just lucky to be on the other part of the Eurasian continent from Mongolia. One look at the map is enough to see why Europe was not conquered by the Mongols - it is too far, too long way from Mongolia.
 
There was no need for the Il-Khans and the Golden Horde to ally to conquer Byzantium. The Il-Khans were able to do that alone without any assistance.
And at the same time the door for a larger European invasion was open for the Ulus of Juchi - they might conquer good chunks of Europe: Hungary, Bohemia, Poland, Germany.
It was doable for the Mongols but it was implausible at that moment because even with the current Great Khan alcoholic still alive in the depth of Asia - the tensions between the Hulaguids and the Juchids were coming to the critical point when the armed conflict for the spheres of influence was inevitable. The main problem for the Mongols was not the Byzantines or the Germans - it was the Mongols themselves.
It is a nature of things - any nation conquering so much inevitably starts squabbling among themselves.

But anyway the Mongols were closer to the world domination than any other nation before or after.

Did the Ulus of Jochi had a chance of swinging down into the Balkans though, if they conquered Hungary?
 

katchen

Banned
How the Mongols dealt with deserts

The relative waterlessness of Syria was a repeated problem for the Mongols, but I believe Hulegu's army was certainly enough to break the incipeint Mamluk state. Not sure what would happen next though.
The Mongols handled crossing deserts by crossing them quickly enough that they did not run out of water. THAT was why the Mongols learned to ride their ponies 70 miles per day, transferring from one horse to another and then another every ten miles so that none of them got too tired. If they took too much time crossing stretches of sand or gobi, their horses would die of thirst and so would they. Which is why and how Mongols learned to move so fast. Outrunning word of their coming and catching enemies by surprise was simply a bonus.
A full Mongol Army might not even cross at Ain Jalut. Hulagu, after sending scouts might well decide (wisely) that he risked being caught in narrow places in the Judean Hills and go through Megiddo --Armaggedon---the way most conquerors do. Or feint toward Megiddo and cross south of the Dead Sea. Or even by the Gulf of Aqaba and ride like Hell for the Mitla and Giddi Passes, the Suez Isthmus and Cairo, a distance of about 200 miles, leaving Baibar's army waiting for them in Palestine while they are sacking Cairo and Alexandria, then attacking Baibars from the rear, meeting him around Gaza or even waiting for Baibars to return to Egypt. If they're moving fast, they can do this. All they need is to water their army at Kerak, Ma'an and Aqabah and possibly Feiran on the way to Cairo. They could even swim the channel to Great Bitter Lake.
 
I continue to assert the Mongols conquering large stretches of Europe for any kind of extended period of time is absurd. They have to deal with heavily fortified land that isn't optimal for their primary tactics. Hungary was some of the best territory in Europe for them and they still couldn't subdue the forts.

They defeated both Poland's and Hungary's armies back in the 1240s. THey overrun Russia, which was a bunch of fortified city states. Though EUrope didn't have a ton of pasture land which would ultimately slow the Mongol advance, the climate was surely better than the middle east. There is a reason the Huns traveled all the way from the steppe and successfully sacked Rome.

The Mongols, if they didn't have internal issues, could have easily accomplished what the Huns did in my mind.
 

katchen

Banned
Actually, Europe did have a lot of pasture land. And hay. What did the knights graze their horses on? Or the sheep that were clipped for wool? Or cows that were milked? Except where it was too cold to farm but not cold enough for tundra, Europe had all kinds of pasture land.
 
It's lame that the only "maximum Mongol conquests" timeline was in the excellent Empty America, a high-concept universe that isn't even centered on it. Has anyone else written a timeline that explored how far the Mongols could have gone?
 
Actually, Europe did have a lot of pasture land. And hay. What did the knights graze their horses on? Or the sheep that were clipped for wool? Or cows that were milked? Except where it was too cold to farm but not cold enough for tundra, Europe had all kinds of pasture land.

Certainly, but the population density made it a little different than the Steppe, but point taken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiLTX_2-560
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY0eczetUTQ

Clips from my all time favorite Mongol documentary.
 
I'm wondering about what relations would be like with Europe if the Mongols conquer Egypt. If the Mongols turn on the Crusader states, it might provide the same motivation for the Eighth and Ninth Crusades as the Mamluk Sultan Baibars's actions did OTL. I think a Crusade against the Mongols would be much less appealing though.
 
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