Battle of Aaland sea 1941

destiple

Banned
Following barbarossa and the danger of leningrad falling into german hands,stalin orders the soviet navy to breakout of the baltic and give battle (lets just ignore the political implications and the destination of the red baltic fleet )

By sept 1941 the number of sea-worthy soviet warships are
battleships
marat
october revolution
cruisers
kirov
maxim gorkii(mine damage on 23 june to bows still not totally operational)
destroyer-leaders
leningrad
minsk
destroyers
about 15
submarines 30
MTBs approx 40
the red naval airforce had about 300 aircraft on 22june by sept roughly half would have been lost.

The axis forces are
GERMANY
tirpitz
admiral scheer
lutzow(torpedo damaged on 12june not fully repaired)
admiral hipper
koln/nurnberg/leipzig/emden
5 destroyers
12 S-boats
6 U-boats
old BBs schleisen and S.holstein
FINLAND
2 coastal battleships
5 submarines
5 MTBs
the luftwaffe at that time had about 100 bombers(ju-87/88 and he-111) operational in scandanavia backed by some 50 fighters
Finnish AF had 120 aircrafts mostly fighters
The gulf of finland and the surrounding seas were heavily mined by germans/finns.
What should have been the likely outcome of such a battle?
 
By September 1941, the Germans and Finns have had ample time to mine the central and western parts of the Gulf of Finland, and otherwise prepare for sorties by the Soviet fleet. If you want to know what the Red Banner Baltic Fleet could expect to get into even before it gets to anywhere near the Ålands, I think you should take a look at the Soviet evacuation of Tallinn in late August.

So, when the Soviets have run the gauntlet of the Gulf of Finland, they will have suffered many losses to mines, German and Finnish land-based air, torpedo boats and submarines, and Finnish coastal artillery. The weakened and damaged Soviet fleet, with its morale low, will then meet the Kriegsmarine's "Baltenflotte" ready to fight near Åland (with the Finnish coastal ships also possibly taking part, at least as a reserve force). This is the exact scenario the Germans had planned, and for which the temporary "Baltenflotte" was put together.

At the end of it, I'll find it hard to see the Soviets coming out ahead. In fact I could see the battle ending with the Red Banner Baltic Fleet destroyed wholesale, some Soviet ships possibly managing to break off and turn back, but with no major Soviet surface vessel making it back to Kronstadt.

Of course there is the real possibility that also the Germans suffer some significant losses, and it is possible that the Finns might lose one of their coastal defence ships and some smaller vessels, too.
 
Last edited:
By September 1941, the Germans and Finns have had ample time to mine the central and western parts of the Gulf of Finland, and otherwise prepare for sorties by the Soviet fleet. If you want to know what the Red Banner Baltic Fleet could expect to get into even before it gets to anywhere near the Ålands, I think you should take a look at the Soviet evacuation of Tallinn in late August.

So, when the Soviets have run the gauntlet of the Gulf of Finland, they will have suffered many losses to mines, German and Finnish land-based air, torpedo boats and submarines, and Finnish coastal artillery. The weakened and damaged Soviet fleet, with its morale low, will then meet the Kriegsmarine's "Baltenflotte" ready to fight near Åland (with the Finnish coastal ships also possibly taking part, at least as a reserve force). This is the exact scenario the Germans had planned, and for which the temporary "Baltenflotte" was put together.

At the end of it, I'll find it hard to see the Soviets coming out ahead. In fact I could see the battle ending with the Red Banner Baltic Fleet destroyed wholesale, some Soviet ships possibly managing to break off and turn back, but with no major Soviet surface vessel making it back to Kronstadt.

Of course there is the real possibility that also the Germans suffer some significant losses, and it is possible that the Finns might lose one of their coastal defence ships and some smaller vessels, too.

This seems like a pretty rational conclusion. Especially since such an operation would be pretty ad-hoc in terms of planning and preperation rather than organized in such a way with constingencies to limit the risks posed by potential Axis responses. Germany also has the strategic initiative in this case, and can more or less take battle at a time and position of its choosing, so by the time the fleets actually get in contact attrition and damage from incidental contact/covering fire is probably going to have reduced the RBF's order of battle signifcantly, and reduce the effectiveness of the remaining vessels far below what their categorization would suggest.
 

destiple

Banned
But the soviet destroyers are much more modern and numerous even if their BBs are obsolete
I think the soviet red banner fleet will overwhelm the germans and finns , if they can avoid the minefields
plus the soviets aircraft are more numerous and well prepared to attack moving ships than luftwaffe

I think you should take a look at the Soviet evacuation of Tallinn in late August.
here the goal was differnet and a very high percentage of soviet vessels were merchantmen
plus I would assume the soviets would plan the breakout a little better
 
But the soviet destroyers are much more modern and numerous even if their BBs are obsolete
I think the soviet red banner fleet will overwhelm the germans and finns , if they can avoid the minefields
plus the soviets aircraft are more numerous and well prepared to attack moving ships than luftwaffe

I think you should take a look at the Soviet evacuation of Tallinn in late August.
here the goal was differnet and a very high percentage of soviet vessels were merchantmen
plus I would assume the soviets would plan the breakout a little better

The crucial question, IMO, is how many and which of the Soviet ships will make it into the battle at all, and how much damage those ships that are still afloat have suffered on the way. The reference to the Juminda disaster is to show that for a large fleet/flotilla on the move, it would be very difficult to avoid the minefields in the Gulf of Finland, and any one mine can sink or at least do major damage to any of the ships involved. And if the Soviets try their best to avoid the minefields, by moving slowly and sending minesweepers ahead to open sealanes for them, any attacks by the Finns and Germans, by smaller vessels, submarines, aircraft and coastal artillery, would be easier along the way. The German "Baltenflotte" would have comparatively suffered only some Soviet air and possibly submarine attacks prior to the battle proper, and would go into it with much less damage to its ships.

As for the air units, remember that the German and Finnish planes would fly from airfields on the Finnish and Estonian coasts, close to the battle, while the Soviets would have to use mainly airbases in the Leningrad area, 300 or more kilometers away. This means that the Luftwaffe and the FAF could very possibly enjoy air superiority during most of the action. They would not only be able to attack multiple times against the Soviet fleet while it is enroute, but would also have much better intel on where the Soviet ships are than what the Soviets will know about the location of the German and Finnish ships. At this time, the Finnish signals intelligence was routinely reading Soviet navy codes, sometimes in almost real time, and this would also help them know what the enemy is doing at any time during the operation.
 
Last edited:
lets say these 2 predreadoughts + one of the finnish coastal defence battleship run into Marat with its 12 x 12 inch guns
that would be an interesting battle !

I think that the Finns and Germans would do all in their power to avoid this. I'd say that the Germans would try to pit the Tirpitz and the Admiral Scheer against the Marat and the Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya, given that the German ships were faster and their 15 and 11 inch guns outranged the 12 inch guns of the Ganguts. Conceivably, with the Germans knowing better where the Soviets are, rather than vice versa, they could hit the Ganguts several times before the Soviets even get within range to shoot back.

If the Finns have any say in this all, the Väinämöinen and Ilmarinen would probably not be sent into battle on the open sea, but kept closer to the coast, in range of coastal artillery forts, like was planned. They were, after all, seen more as floating coastal batteries than anything else, a part of the coastal defence system. The Finnish ships are slow, and their 10 inch guns are more accurate when the ships' fire control is paired with land-based observation posts, etc, so it makes a lot of sense not send them too far from the coast.

EDIT: What is likely to complicate things somewhat is the Soviet presence in the Hanko area, in the base the Finns had to "lease" to the USSR after the Winter War. The Hanko base can be used to support the Soviet air attacks at least, to an extent, even if it practically is under Finnish siege by September.
 
Last edited:
Top