Base Maps from 550 BC to Modern Day, all in UCS!

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Which make it, as it's zoomed, easier to read and distinguish. I was talking about how it would be rended on worlda, unzoomed.

It's unzoomed on the map above. The only reason I zoomed in was to be better able to label the map.

I'd point, again, that statelets shouldn't be used for purely cultural continuum (which is always hard to define) but political/cultural continuum, meaning it could include entities with different cultural basis, but with enough complementarity and influence (mutual or not) with others that it's hard enough to differenciate them and makes little geopolitical sense to do so.

The problem is it's very misleading. There's a huge difference between the situation with the de facto independent states in the south of the Gwandu Empire (which are small but distinguishable on this stage) and the Shan States (which had 20 states recognised as having the rank of King by the Burmese and at least that number lower in rank). One is a collection of states which might look a bit crammed on this scale but, fundamentally, can be drawn even if it's not the neatest look in the world, another is an area where I suspect the QBAM would have difficulties.

I notice you didn't copy/paste Ireland close to the most problematic regions. As in Great Lakes and central Nigeria : there we have 2/3 pixels representing one entity. Several of these regions have represented identities being smaller than it.
(And of course, way smaller than other political ensembles covering statelets, Ireland being among the smallest with Wales)

There is no actual state (as opposed to area of minor statelets) in the Great Lakes with less pixels of coloured area than Qatar (and in fact only Ankole is smaller than Kuwait). There are only 4 in the Sokoto Caliphate, 3 of which are next to each other. Theoretically you could use statelets for that area, but you'd need to do statelet+outline anyway (otherwise it would look like a single vassal), so you're not saving much there. For Gwandu there's one vassal with less pixels than Qatar, and the only other ones in the area that are smaller are independent.

To be really frank, the "But someone did it first" doesn't strikes me as the best defense (and how India is represented, is largely coming from other maps rather than AR's specific work).

On the other hand, nobodies complained about India being too detailed before (or indeed the complete reworking of the Dutch East Indies I did), so it's a pretty good statement of the precedent.

Yes, when it doesn't really harm the reading and the clarity of a map : it's why, in several cases, I simply get rid of some stuff like 2/3 entities that gave few informations and prevented an easier reading of the general situation.

There's sacrificing completeness for clarity, and then there's presenting a situation roughly analogous to the Balkans in terms of state size, variation and complexity as being either a single state or using a colour which we also use for areas where the state structure doesn't extend beyond city states.

Giving that I think we shouldn't dedicate too much room for anything one pixel-wide in German Empire (it's not like depicting its divisions is really sound geopolitically) or British India (the degree if information about several individual pocket-princely states being dangerously close to 0)...

First time I've heard this. Contrarywise, India as current clearly indicates the difference between an area like Gujarat which was lots of small princely state or the south which was several larger ones.

An historical map isn't about depicting the exact situation, but giving an as best interpretation of the former you can give giving the sources and the representation material.
There's, it's not about sources (I'm sure AR did his job), but about the scale of the map which is really reduced : would have the basemap be a Q-BAM, it wouldn't have been a problem.
We're talking about how depicting really small states on a worlda without loosing too much readability, not about the "right" of a political entity to be represented in all its particularities no matter the context.

It's why "statelets" colour is a thing since quite a time. Because it definitely helps when borders are either unknown or unclear when it come to depict them at this scale; and it's why we use different scales : small ones are good for general context, larger ones are good for particular context.

But the statelets colour is very misleading in this case- colour all those Sokoto vassals in statelets and the first impression is that they're little chieftans and tribes like the Shan States or Kachin Hill Tribes rather than quite significantly sized states.

Now, case by case?
Keeping in mind using different borders for inner politics (as with Waddai and states under its direct dominance).

One reason I've used undefined borders there is that it's just as facetious to say that there was a hard border between the area of the Waddai Empire proper and her vassal in Dar Runga as between the Waddai and the Egyptian territories in Sudan.

90 to 93 seems to be either close, if not issued from 91 culturally and politically. While Bunyoro-Kitara Empire may be only a mythological reference, that it's known in both sides of Great Lakes kingdom may at least be considered as the sense of a political/cultural continuity. And eventually ground to consider these kingdoms close enough for being gathered in a statelet group on worlda scale to me.

Well, apart from the fact that checking things I've found that the Toro Kingdom should be part Bunyoro at this point rather than fully independent there's three chief issues here:

1. You lose the distinction between the centralised kingdoms (Buganda, Bunyoro, Ankole etc.) and the 'Kingdom' of Busoga which was a collection of 11 statelets barely drawable on the QBAM (and I've not even found a border for the minor statelets on the lakeside coast next to Ankole)

2. There was actually a bit of back and forth between Buganda and Bunyoro for dominance in the area until Buganda won out under the British- it's not an issue for this map, but making statelets the precedent means you can't show this at all (I'm not advocating a colour though, the scales enough there here it is best to simplify as single states rather than try and show complicated vassal relationships).

3. Apart from possibly the Buganda-Busoga border, every single one of these borders will be a colonial frontier at some point. The British expansion into Uganda was a long, drawn out affair spanning a decade initial agreements with Buganda in 1892, through to the final inclusion of the Kingdom of Ankole in 1901 (it should, in fact, be independent in the 1900 map). Combine that with the colonial administration using these borders (save for a loss of territory by Bunyoro after it attempted to break away in the late 1890s), and it would be very beneficial to see where these borders are coming from as they're not just Europeans randomly carving up this bit of the continent.

Sokoto case is a bit harder, and AR's points are sound. Nevertheless, I'm not sure representing each border of these entities (whom main common point is to be associated, more or less, with Sokoto) and vague enough to have AR not being entierly sure of their characteristics (up to their name) is that a of a good idea.

Well, as for the names I've had to use this map near-exclusively (albeit with document/online text cross-checking) because most online information is this as best (and frankly that's a pretty exceptional example). As such I'm translating from mid-19th century European interpretations of African names. In German. Further research means I've managed to track down that 39 is actually the Ilorin Emirate (Ilori on the map) and that 25 was indeed the Suleja Emirate (also called Zaria or Zazzau). A lot of these vassals were semi-independent and it might be more accurate to indicate more of them as being only nominal vassals (Suleja is reffered to as an independent Hausa refuge at times, though I think that's only in the early stages of the Fulanji Jihad or might be referring to being independent from another vassal).

I understand we're facing a structural limitation there, as gathering them all could make a confusion with "one big Sokoto client" instead of a large set of statelets with various degrees of independence. That's what you get applying Westphalian definition of sovereignty to regions where it can't really be applied.

But, why not playing on borders there? As in plain border for the whole of Sokoto "confederation" (including northern states) but using inner political borders (and colouring differently the regions, as letting "northern caliphate" blank)?
I reckon it would still let the problem of lumping together different entities, but we actually did so for medieval France, giving the lack of choice (clarity trumping exactitude) : eventually the best choice would be to lumping them there, and distinguish them on Q-BAM, to me.

Well, borders runs into the same issue I mentioned earlier with internal borders between vassals being hardly more defined than external ones between nations, though it could be worth a shot.

You definitely can't lump the northern ones together though- that's actually the area where I have the most confidence that these are highly autonomous vassals (Kano at least was one which the Caliphs had to shed a lot of blood to keep hold of). It's the southern ones where I've had difficulty tracking down information on how autonomous they were.

As for Wolof states...I wonder if it wouldn't be more clear without colour, to be honest.

Potentially, though I've also just realised I accidentally erased the Imamate of Futa Jallon from an earlier draft by mistake so it would make a needed distinction there.

I'm going to search around for any clarity on some other areas before posting the updated map.
 
As a general reply to LSCatilina since it's neither useful or a good use of time for us to argue on. It seems as though you and I see eye to eye on the objectives of clarity in historical maps while we disagree on exactly what that standard should be. I tend toward thinking that applying an even standard of detail toward the whole world that has and is given to a place like India without complaint is a good idea. You seem to think that the level of clarity present there is not sufficient and a different standard of clarity should be applied. Not much room to argue or sway from one perspective or another. And since I'm not much more than a lurker on the site while you do all the work I'm not going to try.

When I said that you might think that AR is deliberately misleading I did not mean offense, rather that you might think that he is pushing for a different standard of detail for the basemap through the creation of the 1885 map. Over representing his case if you will. I apologize if you did take offense.

I am going to have to unequivocally disagree with you about applying a differing standard for the map based on time period though. The base maps as a resource become nothing but completely useless if they are not comparable. If they have unique standards then you can't glean any information from any of them at all unless you have specific knowledge about the time period they are depicting. If they use common standard then from what you know of one period of time you can at least look at a map of another period of time and roughly read what might be the case. It is precisely because geopolitics varies drastically through time that you should be applying a universal standard. Make the set of ways you can depict different entities expansive, not always using all of it in one map if you must.
 
Also, can anyone tell me why Ethiopia's depicted as fragmented on some older versions of the 1885 map floating around. I mean, I think I might need to add in the autonomous Kingdom of Shewa, but I can't see why it's got all these rebellions in it.
 
Well I've found out, and I'm pretty sure it's showing the rebellions of Gojjam and Shewa which only began later in 1885. As it stands I've made the following changes:

-Added in the Imamate of Futa Jallon (left) and Wassoulou Empire (right) in West Africa. I've found records indicating that Futa Jallon had also conquered the old Kingdom of Jolof in 1875, but that's on the north side of the river and I can't find any maps or documentary evidence off Wikipedia to check it. I've also gotten rid of the indicated Wolof state- nothing to particularly distinguish it.

-Added in the Sultanate of Gobbir (small state west of Ethiopia), Sultanate of Aussa (independent state east of Ethiopia) and the autonomous kingdoms of Gojjam and Shewa- there were some autonomous lords and do forth in Tigray, Gondar and Wello, but not to the extent of Gojjam and Shewa and the latter two were the only ones with the rank of Negus by this point.

-Toro to Bunyoro as mentioned earlier.

-I've shown a suggestion here with the princely state border for Sokoto, Gwandu, Bornu and Ethiopia, which might make things easier and also helps differentiate between those (which were often considered single states) and Waddai (where her vassals would be drawn separately.
1885new.png
 
It's unzoomed on the map above. The only reason I zoomed in was to be better able to label the map.
As said above : even in the unzoomed version, what happens in these regions is barely distinguishable for someone that didn't really went into regional native African policies of this time.

It's not unlike how you depicted Anglo-Saxons kingdoms in the early MA maps you made a while ago : technically, yes, they were "distinguishable on this stage" but for most of people looking at it, it was a clusterfuck whom precise depiction at this scale served not much geopolitical purpose.

Again, I'm not saying that they weren't "de facto independent states" or can be drawn : but wondering about the point drawing them all at the cost of clarity. Is there any geopolitical point doing so? As in colonial powers taking their share regardless of the political continuity?

There is no actual state (as opposed to area of minor statelets) in the Great Lakes with less pixels of coloured area than Qatar (and in fact only Ankole is smaller than Kuwait).
Point is less having 2/3pixel wide instead of 1pixel wide, than having a lot of 2pixel-wide statelets being represented individually, all in the same area.

Theoretically you could use statelets for that area, but you'd need to do statelet+outline anyway (otherwise it would look like a single vassal)
It may be pointing at a limitation of the RCS, then : how to distinguish between one single dominated entity and several smaller ones.
Why not using a "client" outline?

For Gwandu there's one vassal with less pixels than Qatar, and the only other ones in the area that are smaller are independent.
How does that prevent them to be gathered? Being independent is not guarantee to not being represented with others, as long it makes sense both geopolitically and politically.

On the other hand, nobodies complained about India being too detailed before (or indeed the complete reworking of the Dutch East Indies I did), so it's a pretty good statement of the precedent.
You know that almost nobody never really complain of maps, except map-makers :eek:.

As the precedent was advanced to say "It was done before for Europeans, so we must do so for Africans" (which is not justifying never using statelets, IMO), I'd say that it shouldn't have be done for Europeans and their colonies in first place at this scale, as it serves almost no purpose other than "Borderemon, gotta draw them all")

then there's presenting a situation roughly analogous to the Balkans in terms of state size, variation and complexity
I regularily use statelets for Balkans (or other places) for regions that are roughly the same in term of state size, variation and complexity. Mostly for these reasons : they're small (relatively to the scale), have complex relations.

which we also use for areas where the state structure doesn't extend beyond city states.
Not only : it's only one use of the colour, with "undrawnable borders". Basically, it's not a marker of political evolution (even if the point doesn't stop popping out), but about "representating them all wouldn't be that relevant"

First time I've heard this.
Again, who really complains at map beside map-makers in this thread?

Contrarywise, India as current clearly indicates the difference between an area like Gujarat which was lots of small princely state or the south which was several larger ones.
While really interesting, it doesn't serves that much on a worlda scale, which is about regional/continental geopolitics for this period. In fact, I'd even say it serves almost no purpose at this scale, if I wasn't prevented by my lack of knowledge for this era and period to be too definitive.

I'd say, though, that from my point of view, it does look as representating borders for the sake of it.

But the statelets colour is very misleading in this case- colour all those Sokoto vassals in statelets and the first impression is that they're little chieftans and tribes like the Shan States or Kachin Hill Tribes rather than quite significantly sized states.
I understand your point, but I think it's a bit irrelevant due to the very same limitation in mapping.
Couloured states can represent as much federal entities, than centralized entities, republics, monarchies, confederation or empires.

Similarly, statelets covers a lot of different political situations, from city-states to larger kingdoms.

Eventually, this color scheme may not be really fitting for inner politics representation.

but making statelets the precedent means you can't show this at all
Then maybe not showing it at all in this scale.
Using exemples of maps I went into : there's several gallic states/hegemonies (that can often have a size double or more) competing between each others, for precise interests, whom borders are more or less known and that I still didn't represented because it would be a clusterfuck for anyone not interested or knowledgable on the regional history.

it would be very beneficial to see where these borders are coming from as they're not just Europeans randomly carving up this bit of the continent.
Fair point. Will wait for how it shows up on the others maps.

I tend toward thinking that applying an even standard of detail toward the whole world that has and is given to a place like India without complaint is a good idea.
But again, people rarely (if even) complain : safe map makers, everyone there is essentially asking "Can I have the 1914 map? I don't want to look at the wiki but I'd want it, thanks".

I mean, the ancient and medieval maps were (and are still) an awful mess, but nobody complains how they look. It certainly doesn't mean that they don't have a lot of issues (a good part being named worldhistorymap.com, but I digress).

You seem to think that the level of clarity present there is not sufficient and a different standard of clarity should be applied.
AFAIK, there's no clear standard of clarity : every map is more or less about his maker's own perception of what should be clear (hence why this thread, and why this discussion).

I don't want to press the issue to death, AR having made some good points, but the precedent of a "Borderemon, gotta draw'em all" on a very small scale (even more simpler situation looks really hard to get for people not used to it, and I made the experience with some fellows students or historians, they have some hard time there)

Not much room to argue or sway from one perspective or another.
Maybe : as said, I don't want to press the issue to death...But giving it's a collaborative work, I'd think we may have a better time discussing each other choice's, would it be only to have not too colliding representations.
(Which is a problem : basically all the others standards differenciate from a colour problem, almost never representativity or non-geopolitical standards. But I digress).

And since I'm not much more than a lurker on the site while you do all the work I'm not going to try.
Oh, please, not that again. You can and have to give your piece of opinion : it doesn't mean it would be taken wholly, but nobody pointing out problems means an overall loss of quality.

The base maps as a resource become nothing but completely useless if they are not comparable. If they have unique standards then you can't glean any information from any of them at all unless you have specific knowledge about the time period they are depicting.
I agree, but we don't use unique standards so far for different time periods : aRCS is conceptualized to fit RCS, to be compatible and to not evolve in its own way (with AR maybe using a aRCS colour for RCS if it's needed)

There's things you can't represent if you hold by a Westphalian Sovereignity basis for the principle even for regions and time periods that ignore it. I'd welcome any critic on ancient or medieval map I made so far using aRCS, but arguing they use a standard not comparable with the standard RCS would be a bit of a surprise to me.
So far, not only nobody complained about it (but giving that nobody complains there safe map makers...), but it recieved some agreement from people working on ancient/medieval maps.

If you have ideas about how representing non-WS situation with a standard still largely made on WS, I'd like to hear them.
So far, what was proposed was playing on borders but these are pretty much undistiguishable from each others safe zooming; but there's maybe some way to work it around the problem.

As aRCS is clearly not in any way perfect but build on problems we encountered, and jury-rigging RCS to precise needs.

For exemple : how would you represent (acknowledged) suzerainty over a de facto and de jure independent state? Client doesn't covers it, as there's no immediate dominant/dominee relationship.

In fact, aRCS could be used to resolve really easily the Sokoto situation problem there, but using two different variants in a same map would be there far too problematic and confusing. Meaning we can't jury-rig it there, but make it with the limitation of a eurocentric conception and representation of politics, making non-european entities harder to represent.

Make the set of ways you can depict different entities expansive, not always using all of it in one map if you must.
Making maps out of scratch (safe for coasts, and sometimes rivers of course) is really problematic. Enough for that I'm not willing to make several slightly different variations of the same situation on a same scale.

Giving how much pain is 814 on Q-BAM, I definitely don't want doing it two or three times for not hurting RCS's feelings on universality, when non-WS situation getting a non-WS variant makes it far easier to me and for people to read.

Anyway.
I think I stated my problems with the last map enough, so while I don't let it drop, I'm content with that : if AR decides to makes some modifications, that'd be good in my book.
If he does not, I'd be okay (while less so, obviously :p).
 
Since this is where the updating process for maps is going on I'd assume you guys probably have a ton of maps on your computers. Might any of you have some of the world during the American Revolutionary War? Specifically 1778, but I can take another and then just edit it.
 
I support the added detail on Africa, and everywhere. Too many times I've tried to put something I read about on a map and found that the borders in the area were just random lines. If you want to actually do anything in Africa you need that detail.
 
I support the added detail on Africa, and everywhere. Too many times I've tried to put something I read about on a map and found that the borders in the area were just random lines. If you want to actually do anything in Africa you need that detail.

Indeed, I prefer as much detail as is reasonably possible. For the 1885 Africa, my thoughts are basically this: Who cares if one isn't fully aware of what the situation actually is? At least I can see where there are nations and where there are not, and the colour-coding tells me enough as it is without the need to broaden or reduce the use of it.
 
Well, I'm still fiddling about with things, but I think you might be slightly over-estimating the amount you can simplify things LSC. Culture is right out because the Hausa cultural grouping spreads across Gwandu, Sokoto, the northern states and some areas which were parts of Bornu at times. Politically, you can't do much with Gwandu because her own vassals are heavily fragmented and spread around.
 
A question for everyone: What would be the best way of Showing the Carlist Wars in Spain?

Also, I've come to the conclusion that at least the 2nd Spanish Republic needs to be pink from the outset- otherwise it's going to look like a Communist uprising against the government which is then crushed not the government being overthrown.
 
A question for everyone: What would be the best way of Showing the Carlist Wars in Spain?

Also, I've come to the conclusion that at least the 2nd Spanish Republic needs to be pink from the outset- otherwise it's going to look like a Communist uprising against the government which is then crushed not the government being overthrown.

For the 2nd Spanish republic, my normal approach is to leave it at the standard Spain colour, then replace it with two new colours (I usually use the Spanish communist and the what has become TACOS Bolivia) once the civil war begins. The fascist/Francoist Spain colour then remains until Franco's death. That way, neither oof the two factions are considered to be the "proper" Spain that continues to modern times, which is more or less how the peace resolution has made it.
 
A question for everyone: What would be the best way of Showing the Carlist Wars in Spain?
Isabelist, as legal government, in Spanish colour; and Carlists, as rebels (and somehow disorganized) in rebel grey.

Also, I've come to the conclusion that at least the 2nd Spanish Republic needs to be pink from the outset- otherwise it's going to look like a Communist uprising against the government which is then crushed not the government being overthrown.
I think it would be too complex to shown (unless we're going to outline in pink every Popular Front governments, which would be silly), for too little relevant information provided. I'd say to keep it plain Spanish colour, as the legal governement with a direct institutional continuation.
As for Nationalists...Rebel grey is probably best fitting as above.
 
Are there any up-to-date maps of Italy before unification? I've found a few older ones on the wiki but the borders seem awfully blocky and I'm not sure what's correct.

Edit: Never mind! I managed to compare an older one with other maps of Italy and come up with the borders I wanted. :)
 
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Are there any up-to-date maps of Italy before unification? I've found a few older ones on the wiki but the borders seem awfully blocky and I'm not sure what's correct.

Edit: Never mind! I managed to compare an older one with other maps of Italy and come up with the borders I wanted. :)

I'd love to see your patch, if you want to share it, by the way.
 
Anyone want to try a 395 AD? Or should I do a meager attempt at it? I feel like 395 and/or 400 is/are good years to map.
 
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