BAOR vs. Volksarmee

I´m not an expert for this, but here is a scenario.
NATO-mobilisation started just D-3. The greater part of the I. Dutch is still behind the Rhine, I. Ger. is spread a bit thin, because in the North they have to stop the 2. Guard Tank from cutting of Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein.
3. Shock attacking southern sector of I. Ger., 8. Guard attacking I. Bel (which isn´t at full power). 5. NVA should attack the BOAR and keep her occupied, as long as the Soviet try to achieve breakthroughs north and south of the british sector.
 
I'm going by observations about having read and gamed a lot on the topic:

1. There are a few important objectives in BAOR's AOR, Hameln for one as a crossing point along the Wesser. Another is Neinberg. Taking both threatens to isolate Hannover as well as forces crossings of the Wesser. Now, if the Soviets really wanted to force the issue..they COULD reinforce 3rd Shock with NVA 5th Army and let 2nd Guards assume it's mission of Hamburg and Bremerhaven, as well as sealing off Denmark. You'd have to reinforce it with the Poles...but it's doable.

2. The East Germans depending on the period, had good morale and decent, though not great equipment, but they'd be up against a damned canny and motivated opponent in BAOR. And, depending on the time period...one with recent combat experience. My guess is it would be one nasty fight whoever won.

3. What matters is geography..BAOR knows it's role, and the terrain's no longer a plain, as has been mentioned...it's going to be MOUT in hundreds of towns and villages against a Soviet/East German force that's not going to want to be slowed down, but will have to because of the threat against it's supply lines and second echelon forces if it doesn't deal with these fortified towns and villages, because, unlike the French in 1940, the British are mobile...and they're working with their counterparts in the German HSK and Himatschutzen units...not to mention a lot of West German police departments are well armed...
 
-snip-resurgent neo nazi West Germany Panzer Korps spearheading a NATO push through Berlin -Warsaw- Minsk axis, with the aim of reaching Moscow.-snip- :confused:

Not even any of the TLs here have anything that ridiculous...unfortunately:(.
 
What must be remebered is that in any conventinal fight is the fact that the BAOR was a professional force and the NVA was a conscript force. This plus the fact that historicaly the British army fights better on the defensive.

Equipment wise would you rather be in a T55/T72 or a Cheiftain/Challanger1?
 
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What must be remebered is that in any conventinal fight is the fact that the BAOR was a professional force and the NVA was a conscript force. This plus the fact that historicaly the British army fights better on the defensive.

Equipment wise would you rather be in a T55/T72 or a Cheiftain/Challanger1?

Agreed but they were thinking of Chieftain vs T-70 which would eventually become the T-64. A West German tanker once told me that they had a exercise with Leopard-1 Battalion run into a Chieftain supported Battlegroup. Before the BAOR battalion could even react , the entire battalion turned about in place and dashed into a forest and went around the UK battalion, which was their mission anyway.
 
Agreed but they were thinking of Chieftain vs T-70 which would eventually become the T-64. A West German tanker once told me that they had a exercise with Leopard-1 Battalion run into a Chieftain supported Battlegroup. Before the BAOR battalion could even react , the entire battalion turned about in place and dashed into a forest and went around the UK battalion, which was their mission anyway.

The op states this is the BAOR vs the NVA though the NVA had a quantity of T72s, the majority of there tanks were T55s.
 
I. Ger. is spread a bit thin, because in the North they have to stop the 2. Guard Tank from cutting of Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein.

Defence of Slesvig-Holstein was the task of COMLANDJUT element of BALTAP consisting of a corps of West German 6. Pz.Grenadier Division and Danish Jutland Armoured Infantry Division supported by BALTAP air and naval assets.
 
Defence of Slesvig-Holstein was the task of COMLANDJUT element of BALTAP consisting of a corps of West German 6. Pz.Grenadier Division and Danish Jutland Armoured Infantry Division supported by BALTAP air and naval assets.
That the reason I spoke not of conquering Hamburg or Schleswig Holstein, but of cutting of. Cutting of BALTAP from NORTHAG.
 

Dure

Banned
The thing is that NORTHAG or the BOAR whatever it was calling itself in the early 1980s was not intended to fight the East Germans alone. It was intended to fight against, if I recall correctly, a whole front, including a shock army and at least a pair of guards tank armies. I also seem to remember that a second front was positioned south of the first and could strike either to the north towards BOAR or at the centre. The British strategy was to continually withdraw through prepared positions maximising Soviet losses and hopefully bleeding the giant to a standstill. Extensive use was to be made of light armour screening and infantry field forces (by the British themselves at least). The British intended to feed in troops from the UK regulars and territorial’s to keep up their formation strengths, the (West) Germans would form territorial units which would join the fight and replace lost regular units (there were some issues about these troops being fencibles). As far as I know the units from the low countries were below strength and unlikely to be reinforced to any degree. A period joke was that the British army of the 1980s was so well disciplined and trained that it would retreat all the way to the Channel without breaking at which point it would consist of a general, a standard bearer, a piper and a corporal of the catering corps to make the tea.

Given the above situation the poor East Germans are probably not even in with a chance. They were intended to fight in conjunction with Soviet units and to make use of Soviet organic supply assets at front level. Compared to the combined air assets of Britain, BOAR dedicated West German and low countries air assets in the 1980s they have little. On the plus side they are spread across East Germany and can now flank the BOAR from the south passing through a West Germany free of American, French and German opposition.

On the face of it the East Germans are crushed but the situation is more than a little artificial and if the Germans have some good generals they could turn the situation around.

This should really be in ASB.
 
A period joke was that the British army of the 1980s was so well disciplined and trained that it would retreat all the way to the Channel without breaking at which point it would consist of a general, a standard bearer, a piper and a corporal of the catering corps to make the tea.

The corporal would then throw the boiling tea in the enemy's face and they would board the waiting Royal Navy boat to return to Blighty.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
This should really be in ASB.

Well, there weren't any crazy sex change viruses so I decided to keep it out of ASB. :D

Defence of Slesvig-Holstein was the task of COMLANDJUT element of BALTAP consisting of a corps of West German 6. Pz.Grenadier Division and Danish Jutland Armoured Infantry Division supported by BALTAP air and naval assets.

And you know what that means...1980s Europe gets Centurions vs. T-72s!
 
Well, there weren't any crazy sex change viruses so I decided to keep it out of ASB. :D



And you know what that means...1980s Europe gets Centurions vs. T-72s!


Its not ABS, but maybe it should be what would happen if a East German Tank Divsion clashed with a BOAR Armored brigade plus Divisional Artillery?
 
There's the alternative possiblity of the East Germans having their two army-sized formations broken up and their divisions assigned to Soviet Armies. I recall reading of OBs from the 1970s and '80s that had the East German divisions assigned to each of the armies in GSFG in wartime. 3rd Shock Army, which was the bad boy against NORTHAG, supposedly as 1st Western Front's exploitation force, was to get one East German Division, 2nd GTA two, 20th GA one, with the rest going down to 8th Guards and 28th Armies in 2nd Western Front (against CENTAG). But there's no doubt that the East Germans would've been the most loyal of the Pact (everyone else was suspect, but would have stayed loyal as long as they're winning).
 

MacCaulay

Banned
But there's no doubt that the East Germans would've been the most loyal of the Pact (everyone else was suspect, but would have stayed loyal as long as they're winning).

And that right there is the rub. The only other member who even had an army that could've stood up to any NATO formation for any length of time was Poland, and in the 80s mobilizing that army for a war would've been a joke. They would've been more likely to invade East Germany than West.
 
And that right there is the rub. The only other member who even had an army that could've stood up to any NATO formation for any length of time was Poland, and in the 80s mobilizing that army for a war would've been a joke. They would've been more likely to invade East Germany than West.

Once they were issued with live ammunition they most likely would have taken on the Soviets as well.
 
I Ger. Corps wasn't identical to COMLANDJUT.
It dosn't deprive you being honest saying you didn't know. ;)

The point is, I know that the 6. Panzergrenadier and the Jutlanddivision didn´t belonged to the Í. Ger.. I know that Schleswig-Holstein and Jutland belonged to AFNORTH and not to AFCENT (what I always saw as a major flaw of the NATO-command-structure). But I got the feeling you don´t know a bit about german geography. If you break through the NATO-front south of Hamburg, there would come sooner or later the Moment, where Schleswig-Holstein just could reached about sea-lanes, because the Elbe-river between Hamburg and the Northsea is to broad. The Sector south of Hamburg belonged to I. Dutch, but in my scenario they greater part of I. Dutch hadn´t reached their sector and so I.Ger. had to defend this sector too. Do you know get it:confused:, or is this to complicated for you?
 
The point is, I know that the 6. Panzergrenadier and the Jutlanddivision didn´t belonged to the Í. Ger.. I know that Schleswig-Holstein and Jutland belonged to AFNORTH and not to AFCENT (what I always saw as a major flaw of the NATO-command-structure). But I got the feeling you don´t know a bit about german geography. If you break through the NATO-front south of Hamburg, there would come sooner or later the Moment, where Schleswig-Holstein just could reached about sea-lanes, because the Elbe-river between Hamburg and the Northsea is to broad. The Sector south of Hamburg belonged to I. Dutch, but in my scenario they greater part of I. Dutch hadn´t reached their sector and so I.Ger. had to defend this sector too. Do you know get it:confused:, or is this to complicated for you?

The area of operations of COMLANDJUT streched all the way to the WG/GDR border east of Lübeck.
 
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