Baltic Union?

Not only could peasants reduce their obligations to their estate holders by paying taxes directly to the Swedish state, but the Swedes developed what passed for an admirable system of education, so you had a level of literacy developing that tended to help nationalism along.

Is nationalism what we want here?

I don't know enough about the nature of social structures and linguistic issues in Poland-Lithuania to speculate about what could have happened there, but it seems like in OTL the eastern areas tended to end up with a Polonized upper class and a backward peasant class speaking the local language(s). Not much of a running start for what would have had to be a big flat Switzerland to be viable politically.

Okay, this I can talk about, and will in a bit.
 
Is nationalism what we want here?

Well, the thread called for the Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians to have tried to cast off the rule of the Germans, Russians and/or Poles. It seems like nationalism is built into the equation, whether from our perspective that would have been desirable or not is another issue.
 
Well, the thread called for the Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians to have tried to cast off the rule of the Germans, Russians and/or Poles. It seems like nationalism is built into the equation, whether from our perspective that would have been desirable or not is another issue.


I guess my concern is that those are emphatically not the same peoples.

Anyway, if the Swedes are taking over, what you may see is a reverse of the serfdom that gradually revived during the 17th and 18th centuries. Is this a good thing or not? it depends who you ask; it's been argued that the rise in serfdom was due to increased demand for grain from western europe; but if this is so, then surely serfdom will flow naturally, ATL as well as OTL? On the other hand... Swedish governments weren't too fond of serfdom, and a bunch of powerful landlords along the Baltic Coast aren't in their best interest. So I could see the Swedes pushing against it, even as Serfdom does return in Poland-Lithuania and Russia.
 

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I guess my concern is that those are emphatically not the same peoples.

Anyway, if the Swedes are taking over, what you may see is a reverse of the serfdom that gradually revived during the 17th and 18th centuries. Is this a good thing or not? it depends who you ask; it's been argued that the rise in serfdom was due to increased demand for grain from western europe; but if this is so, then surely serfdom will flow naturally, ATL as well as OTL? On the other hand... Swedish governments weren't too fond of serfdom, and a bunch of powerful landlords along the Baltic Coast aren't in their best interest. So I could see the Swedes pushing against it, even as Serfdom does return in Poland-Lithuania and Russia.

In Sweden proper (Sweden & Finland) serfdom was abolished long ago. But in the Baltic Provinces the Swedes usually left old institutions intact and allied with the German elite.
 
Actually, something close to this might have happened in 1650s. During the Swedish invasion of Poland in the Deluge, the Radzwill family betrayed the Polish king in favor of a solidly (in their hopes) protestant independent Lithuania, initially allied to Sweden, then breaking off. The treason never came to fruition, dying as a private rebellion of protestants, and Janusz Radzwill died in the war, with his cousin Boguslaw, the last male calvinist in the line, dying shortly after. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was legally in control of Lithuania, latvia, parts of Estonia, and much of Belarus. In my opinion, that is the most likely possibility.

its so polish point of view...
read this one( In the Shadows of Poland and Russia. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Sweden in the European Crisis of the mid-17th Century ) if you to know more about - Union of Kėdainiai

PS RIP to Janusz Radzwill
 
its so polish point of view...
read this one( In the Shadows of Poland and Russia. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Sweden in the European Crisis of the mid-17th Century ) if you to know more about - Union of Kėdainiai

PS RIP to Janusz Radzwill

While it is a Polish point of view, since they were rebelling against their government and failed, it is not improper to call it treason.
 
While it is a Polish point of view, since they were rebelling against their government and failed, it is not improper to call it treason.

you mast read more about this subject: ( In the Shadows of Poland and Russia. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Sweden in the European Crisis of the mid-17th Century ) , "they " had own "government",GDL was en independent state with own army, taxes etc.
 
you mast read more about this subject: ( In the Shadows of Poland and Russia. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Sweden in the European Crisis of the mid-17th Century ) , "they " had own "government",GDL was en independent state with own army, taxes etc.

I had always been under the impression that the Union of Lublin created one state, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, out of the two that were in personal union beforehand. The commonwealth had a common sejm and senate.

A rebellion against one was a rebellion against the other.

If you can point out to me where I can find this book, I'll be happy. I'll be dropping by Krakow in the coming weeks and might just drop by Vilnius as well.

If not, since I'm Canadian, I'll take a look at Chapters/Indigo or Amazon.
 
I had always been under the impression that the Union of Lublin created one state, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, out of the two that were in personal union beforehand. The commonwealth had a common sejm and senate.
A common sejm and senate, but separate provincial sessions of sejm, separate offices, army and exchequer
A rebellion against one was a rebellion against the other.
That is indeed very biased point of view. That wasn't family's business, as described by Polish Eagle. There were more than thousand signatures under act of the Union of Kėdainiai.
If you can point out to me where I can find this book, I'll be happy. I'll be dropping by Krakow in the coming weeks and might just drop by Vilnius as well.

If not, since I'm Canadian, I'll take a look at Chapters/Indigo or Amazon.
You can find that book on internet, file's name is urn_nbn_se_su_diva-973-2__fulltext.pdf
 
A common sejm and senate, but separate provincial sessions of sejm, separate offices, army and exchequer That is indeed very biased point of view. That wasn't family's business, as described by Polish Eagle. There were more than thousand signatures under act of the Union of Kėdainiai. You can find that book on internet, file's name is urn_nbn_se_su_diva-973-2__fulltext.pdf

I admit it might seem biased, but one of the definitions of treason is a "crime that covers some of the more serious acts of disloyalty to one's sovereign or nation". While I can see how some would still say that GDL was a seperate state, I would disagree. Just a matter of opinion.

Still, if they are rebelling against their sovereign, who while being the King of Poland had also been elected Grand Duke of Lithuania, they are committing treason.

And about that book file, do I just type into Google? Thanks a bunch.
 
I admit it might seem biased, but one of the definitions of treason is a "crime that covers some of the more serious acts of disloyalty to one's sovereign or nation". While I can see how some would still say that GDL was a seperate state, I would disagree. Just a matter of opinion.

Still, if they are rebelling against their sovereign, who while being the King of Poland had also been elected Grand Duke of Lithuania, they are committing treason.
I was about blaming Radvilas alone in treason not about discusing the fact itself. In this particular case I must admit there were a treason towards the Grand Duke.
While GDL was part of the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth wasn't unitary state, the fact that, I noticed, is often overlooked.
And about that book file, do I just type into Google? Thanks a bunch.
I just don't remember where I got that file from :)
 
I was about blaming Radvilas alone in treason not about discusing the fact itself. In this particular case I must admit there were a treason towards the Grand Duke.
While GDL was part of the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth wasn't unitary state, the fact that, I noticed, is often overlooked. I just don't remember where I got that file from :)

Ah, sorry then. I must have missed the gist of your argument.

I'll try looking for the book online, but would you know any good detailed history of the commonwealth or or just medieval Lithuania in English I could find. All I have is God's Playground.
 
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