Baltic Invasion??

NapoleonXIV

Banned
This will probably be judged ASB but what else is new:p

Given that the RN and USN pretty much had the Germans whipped in surface warships from the get go, and given that they were beginning air superiority by 1943, could an invasion of Germany have been mounted in the inner Baltic?? True, they'd have to fight damnably hard to get past Denmark on both sides but look at the advantage. You now have an Army 100 miles from Berlin, and have basically cut off the entire German contingent in all of Western Europe.
 
This will probably be judged ASB but what else is new:p

Given that the RN and USN pretty much had the Germans whipped in surface warships from the get go, and given that they were beginning air superiority by 1943, could an invasion of Germany have been mounted in the inner Baltic?? True, they'd have to fight damnably hard to get past Denmark on both sides but look at the advantage. You now have an Army 100 miles from Berlin, and have basically cut off the entire German contingent in all of Western Europe.

Nope. First of all, those troops would need supplies. Lot's of them. And the Germans could stop this by simply mining the danish straits. Not to mention that the Germans in 1943 could use their airpower and wipe out the fleet that way.
 

CalBear

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Air superiority was NOT achieved in 1943, and what would be needed was air supremacy, which was the condition under which Normandy took place.

In 1943 the American bomber formations were still getting cut to shreds by the Luftwaffe. The Mustang had barely begun to reach the Eighth AAF in the fall of '43. Even then it was a multi-hour flight to & from the targets. You can't count on air cover that has to come half way across Europe and has limited loiter time once it arrives. By contrast the Allies in Normandy had masses of fighters and attack bombers right across the Channel from the invasion beaches. The only way to get air cover up there would be with carriers & it would take a true madman to put carriers into waters that restricted.

The Allies never had sufficient air power and ASW in place to sail all the way up the Baltic, not even in the Spring of '45. Your forces would be exposed to U-boat attack by boats that 1) would never need to surface & 2) have received their orders prior to leaving port making Enigma intercepts useless. Since those were the two key ways that the U-boats were kept at arm's length your troop convoys would be hugely vulnerable. Your forces would be open to night attack by the excellent German E-boat (aka Schnellboot), sort of a PT boat on steroids, which are a very effective weapon in constricted waters. Mining of the waters has already been mentioned.Everything in the Luftwaffe inventory would be able to take a swipe at the convoys for days before the invasion beaches were even reached.

Any attempt to pull this off would have made OTL Gallipoli look well thought out and hugely successful.
 

Redbeard

Banned
You could say that the proximity of Denmark to the German capital and heartland necessisated Germany being absolutely sure of no hostile power being in control of Denmark. In WWI Demark had the military power to do so herself, but demilitarisation in the 1930s lead directly to the German invasion of 1940.

During WWII the Jutland west coast was p+art if the Atlantic wall and at least as comprehensive as at Normandy. But on top that, an allied army succesfully landing in Jutland, will have to penetrate a rather narrow peninsula to get into Germany. A handful of Divisions deployed across the southern part of the Jutland would make further advance very difficult and impossible vs. a determined defender. If the allied landed in Jutland I guess it would be as part of an operation gaining control over the Baltic entrances (i.e. also seizing the Danish Isles, mainly Zealand), perhaps limitting it to the northern part of Jutland (north of the Limfjord), where the 15" batteries controlling the Skagerak were situated (Hanstholm).

But next an extremely comprehensive mine sweeping operation of Kattegat and the straits is needed, probably the biggest seen yet. Considering the disparity in naval strength by 1943 or later I would not call it impossible, but very costly and not at least time consuming. The Germans will have plenty of time to deploy forces to receive landings on the German Baltic coast. The problem is, that until very late in the war, the Germans could through their dense and efficient railway network move huge forces from front to front much quicker than the allies could. And having the two main fronts close together (N.Germany vs. Normandy in relation to the East Front) would make German shifts of focus very swift and unpredictable. The relatively unexperienced w. allies would hate to have a East Front Panzer Corps suddenly appearing out of nowhere.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
The only way I could see this type of operation contemplated is if the Allies are thinking of another Dieppe style mass raid. If done in the immediate breakout from the beaches of Normandy, it could be contemplated with two major strategic objectives:

#1-Confuse the German response. A serious report of Allied landings directly on German soil would make for a large response by troops that should be rushing to Normandy.

#2-Wreck critical German industry in the path of the invasion force.

The things that argue against it would be that they don't need another Dieppe disaster, it's just as easy to bomb German infrastructure and that by diverting the sealift resources to this operation, you are actually weakening the resources that Overlord needs.
 
This will probably be judged ASB but what else is new:p

Given that the RN and USN pretty much had the Germans whipped in surface warships from the get go, and given that they were beginning air superiority by 1943, could an invasion of Germany have been mounted in the inner Baltic?? True, they'd have to fight damnably hard to get past Denmark on both sides but look at the advantage. You now have an Army 100 miles from Berlin, and have basically cut off the entire German contingent in all of Western Europe.

Tried to post a scenario on it once. I think the prerequisite is a Europe First -strategy on behalf of the USN. So, instead of carriers and landing craft poured to the Pacific for operations in Spring-Summer-Autumn 1944, they are posted to ETO. With USN's powerful carrier fleet air superiority could be quaranteed for an invasion, while UK could be used effectively to replenish carrier air strength and also to air support with medium bombers. Availability of additional transportation would also make a dash for Baltic sea feasible.

True, German subs would have some home advantage in operating, but with vast Allied ASW superiority I doubt it would be of crucial importance. Also, after subs were dealt with, the sub threat against Allied lines of communication would be effectively over. Dealing with mine threat would be hard, but not at all impossible. On 15 June 1944 Germans had just five divisions in Denmark, including one Reserve Panzer Division (does not sound good), one just formed infantry division (363.), occupation division in Jutland (416.) and two addition reserve infantry divisions (160. and 166.).

German fortifications in Denmark were also very weak, with coastal artillery just in Jutland. A campaign in Denmark would have exposed the German armed forces fully to Allied naval supremacy.

Here's how I would have done it:

Phase I - Bombing campaign against French transportation and various raids against German fortifications in France

Phase II - Operation Saxon Revenge, invasion of Denmark. At first, US 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions land in Sjaelland. British 6th Airborne lands in vicinity of Aalborg, while 1st Special Service Brigade occupies islands of Anholt and Laesoe. US Task Force 58 operates in Skagerrack for tactical air support. At same time, Allied minesweepers and light craft go to the Sound itself to secure isolation of Sjaelland. Behind them the convoy transferring the US First Army heads for Sjaelland to secure it as an airbase and base for future operations.

The British Second Army lands in North Jutlandic Island, it's mission is to secure area north of Limfjord.

Phase III - The German resistance was heroic, although they were taken by complete surprise. Allied air power smashed German reinforcements which at Hitler's insistence were directed to eliminate North Jutlandic Island bridgehead. This famous "Hitler's folly" was due to him not understanding the crucial importance of Sjaelland instead. In beginning of July British Second Army was firmly entrenched in Northern Jutland actually employing just one corps and US First Army had cleared Sjaelland and Lolland.

Phase IV - The July 7 was the date for Operation Cobra - Landing of Allied Troops in German soil between Lübeck and Wismar. What follows is the bloosdiest combat in Western Front. The German units fight surprisingly hard, but the Allied superiority in material and firepower is overwhelming

1 August - Warsaw rising - Polish Airborne brigade is flown to help the uprising while Allied planes drop supplies flying from their bases in Sjaelland.

1 August - Ceasefire between Finland and Soviet Union. Allied Control Commission will consist of 100 Soviet and 100 British members.

15 August - Operation Dragoon, Allied landing in Southern France - the operation is smooth as German forces are concentrated to the Eastern Front and against Allied landings on German soil.

Phase V - Breakout from Allied Bridgehead is reality as Operation Market Garden - massive Allied Airborne assault - spearheads Allied breakout from their bridgehead on September 15.

The Allied forces arrive at vicinity of Berlin on 1 November 1944. While preparing for final assault upon the city Germany surrenders.
 

CalBear

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Monthly Donor
Tried to post a scenario on it once. I think the prerequisite is a Europe First -strategy on behalf of the USN. So, instead of carriers and landing craft poured to the Pacific for operations in Spring-Summer-Autumn 1944, they are posted to ETO. With USN's powerful carrier fleet air superiority could be quaranteed for an invasion, while UK could be used effectively to replenish carrier air strength and also to air support with medium bombers. Availability of additional transportation would also make a dash for Baltic sea feasible.

True, German subs would have some home advantage in operating, but with vast Allied ASW superiority I doubt it would be of crucial importance. Also, after subs were dealt with, the sub threat against Allied lines of communication would be effectively over. Dealing with mine threat would be hard, but not at all impossible. On 15 June 1944 Germans had just five divisions in Denmark, including one Reserve Panzer Division (does not sound good), one just formed infantry division (363.), occupation division in Jutland (416.) and two addition reserve infantry divisions (160. and 166.).

German fortifications in Denmark were also very weak, with coastal artillery just in Jutland. A campaign in Denmark would have exposed the German armed forces fully to Allied naval supremacy.

Here's how I would have done it:

Phase I - Bombing campaign against French transportation and various raids against German fortifications in France

Phase II - Operation Saxon Revenge, invasion of Denmark. At first, US 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions land in Sjaelland. British 6th Airborne lands in vicinity of Aalborg, while 1st Special Service Brigade occupies islands of Anholt and Laesoe. US Task Force 58 operates in Skagerrack for tactical air support. At same time, Allied minesweepers and light craft go to the Sound itself to secure isolation of Sjaelland. Behind them the convoy transferring the US First Army heads for Sjaelland to secure it as an airbase and base for future operations.

The British Second Army lands in North Jutlandic Island, it's mission is to secure area north of Limfjord.

Phase III - The German resistance was heroic, although they were taken by complete surprise. Allied air power smashed German reinforcements which at Hitler's insistence were directed to eliminate North Jutlandic Island bridgehead. This famous "Hitler's folly" was due to him not understanding the crucial importance of Sjaelland instead. In beginning of July British Second Army was firmly entrenched in Northern Jutland actually employing just one corps and US First Army had cleared Sjaelland and Lolland.

Phase IV - The July 7 was the date for Operation Cobra - Landing of Allied Troops in German soil between Lübeck and Wismar. What follows is the bloosdiest combat in Western Front. The German units fight surprisingly hard, but the Allied superiority in material and firepower is overwhelming

1 August - Warsaw rising - Polish Airborne brigade is flown to help the uprising while Allied planes drop supplies flying from their bases in Sjaelland.

1 August - Ceasefire between Finland and Soviet Union. Allied Control Commission will consist of 100 Soviet and 100 British members.

15 August - Operation Dragoon, Allied landing in Southern France - the operation is smooth as German forces are concentrated to the Eastern Front and against Allied landings on German soil.

Phase V - Breakout from Allied Bridgehead is reality as Operation Market Garden - massive Allied Airborne assault - spearheads Allied breakout from their bridgehead on September 15.

The Allied forces arrive at vicinity of Berlin on 1 November 1944. While preparing for final assault upon the city Germany surrenders.

The Admiral who took this scheme into the CNO would leave as an able-bodied seaman (or under arrest). There is NO CHANCE that you would take carriers into the Baltic, the Straits are so restrictive that it would be suicide. Battlegroups, even the WW II versions, needs space to operate. Worse, you lose a ship IN one of the straits and you block the channel.

The smartest course for the Germans would be to allow the USN to be stupid & then mine the straits, pinning the whole TF like a firefly in a jar.
 
Utterly impossible.

This requires a fleet many times the size of Overlord with dozens of reinforcing convoys of supplies and additional units to run the gauntlet between German-occupied Denmark and German-occupied Norway repeatedly in the face of the Luftwaffe while outside the range of Allied fighters in the UK.

Even in mid-1944 with every carrier built stripped from every other operation and battle the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine will still inflict a massacre. Not to mention that if the operation is the size of Overlord then you now have five frontline divisions and the airborne hopelessly out of reach of reinforcements and doomed before the German counterattack.

Just compare the distance from the UK to Pomerania as ships would have to travel, ie, by water, not by the map. Ask how long it takes for ships to cover the distance, unload, make a return trip, then reload for another trip.
 
The Admiral who took this scheme into the CNO would leave as an able-bodied seaman (or under arrest). There is NO CHANCE that you would take carriers into the Baltic, the Straits are so restrictive that it would be suicide. Battlegroups, even the WW II versions, needs space to operate. Worse, you lose a ship IN one of the straits and you block the channel.

The smartest course for the Germans would be to allow the USN to be stupid & then mine the straits, pinning the whole TF like a firefly in a jar.

USN, along with several other forces, operates in Persian Gulf even today, IIRC. Besides, carriers would not have to operate in Baltic Sea but in Skagerrak, having aircraft with plenty of range. Baltic could be left for various surface combatants. RN and USN had plenty of surface combatants. As for Oresund etc, no, they're not canals.
 
Utterly impossible.

This requires a fleet many times the size of Overlord with dozens of reinforcing convoys of supplies and additional units to run the gauntlet between German-occupied Denmark and German-occupied Norway repeatedly in the face of the Luftwaffe while outside the range of Allied fighters in the UK.

Even in mid-1944 with every carrier built stripped from every other operation and battle the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine will still inflict a massacre. Not to mention that if the operation is the size of Overlord then you now have five frontline divisions and the airborne hopelessly out of reach of reinforcements and doomed before the German counterattack.

By June 1944 German capacity to effectively attack Allied convoys was effectively zero. Remember, the precondition would be that more USN resources would be fed to Europe. With historic forces only, this operation would have demanded withdrawal of escort carriers for air superiority duties.
By June 1944 Luftwaffe had total strength of just some 1500 day fighters total, historically which 364 were at East Front and 117 at Balkans, leaving
just some 1018 fighters against Allied Invasion, should invasion on Denmark make Hitler take away every fighter from home defence.

US & RN carrier strength could easily match these numbers. Even with just escort carriers used, just some 40 would easily match the entire Luftwaffe fighter strength. Then we are not even counting long-range fighters from UK and finally, VT artillery used for fleet defense. Moreover, carriers would be able to replenish air strength quickly from UK.

More Kriegsmarine used against invasion, the better as the KM was in hopeless position. Just opportunities to score kills for RN and USN. Besides, in manpower terms naval forces were cheap.

As for counterattacking the bridgeheads, any offensive would have to come over significant natural obstacle, in case of Northen Jutland over Limfjorden, in case of Sjaelland over Great Belt.

In case of Great Belt, The German record of amphibious assaults was not good, besides, by mid-1944 a large-scale amphibious operation by German Navy against full Allied air superiority, coastal defences and light and heavy craft would have been impossible.

Just compare the distance from the UK to Pomerania as ships would have to travel, ie, by water, not by the map. Ask how long it takes for ships to cover the distance, unload, make a return trip, then reload for another trip.

It's not the distance by sea, but by land. By 1944 the Allies had plenty of shipping, the problem was the transportation of supplies after they had been landed, as infrastructure was wrecked and even the Allies did not have unlimited amount of trucks. An advanced base in Sjaelland would mean that after initial period ships could arrive directly from the US or UK to well-equipped ports close to theater of war, instead of historical situation in which after landing the supplies in Antwerpen, at best, supplies had to be transported by trucks for hundreds of kilometers.

After Sjaelland the Berlin is just one trans-shipment and from Wismar it's 250km's to Berlin. Additionally, with entrance to Baltics, Poland, Baltic Countries and Finland could be wrested from Soviet control. France could be liberated by Dragoon. It would not be inconceivable at all that Sweden would join the conflict, providing significant additional basing areas and also effectively ending the small threat from Norway.
 

CalBear

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Monthly Donor
USN, along with several other forces, operates in Persian Gulf even today, IIRC. Besides, carriers would not have to operate in Baltic Sea but in Skagerrak, having aircraft with plenty of range. Baltic could be left for various surface combatants. RN and USN had plenty of surface combatants. As for Oresund etc, no, they're not canals.

How much range do you think they need? Those carrier groups will need to go through those straits, to be in position to defend the beachhead (Unless you are seriously planning to force them to overfly the Danish Peninsula on every single mission:eek:). Once there, they can be cut off by five German sea scouts with a rowboat. ASW has never been an exact science, but in the Baltic, during WW II? Unjustifiable risk doesn't even begin to cover it.

In WW II those carriers will need to be within 100 miles of the beach, although it would be better to be 50 or less. The fighters & fighter bombers need to be able to loiter in support. Unlike today there's no air-to-air refueling, so the need will always be to rotate planes into and out of the combat zone. The USN would have to carpet the Baltic with carriers to make this work. Even then you are counting on decent flying weather in a part of the world that is not exactly known as a sun drenched paradise.

BTW: The Germans regularly used to hit the 8th AF formations with 1000+ fighters, well into 1944. That is the entire fighter force from 17 Essex class ships (2 squadrons of 36 planes each AFTER the Kamakazi threat forced the Navy to increase the fighter force on each carrier by 50%). The 17th Essex wasn't commissioned until November of 1945 (six months after VE Day).

This plan also requires the U.S. to effectively abandon the Pacific to the Japanese. Hawaii would be held, and Australia was, in reality, too big of a bite for the IJA, although taking Darwin can not be ruled out. The U.S. then has to fight all the way acrosss the Pacific AFTER VE day, stretching the War well into 1947. All this to end the European War a few months earlier, assuming that everything goes exactly as it is envisioned. If not, then the Western Allies lose an entire Army Group in a greatly expanded Market Garden style disaster.

You are right in that the U.S. puts carriers into the Gulf, and scares the piss out of itself every time. Those ships are hellishly vulnerable there, despite the fact that they are defended a hundred times better than TF 58 was on her best day during WW II.
 
How much range do you think they need? Those carrier groups will need to go through those straits, to be in position to defend the beachhead (Unless you are seriously planning to force them to overfly the Danish Peninsula on every single mission:eek:). Once there, they can be cut off by five German sea scouts with a rowboat. ASW has never been an exact science, but in the Baltic, during WW II? Unjustifiable risk doesn't even begin to cover it.

Actually Baltic sea during Second World War was a environment where subs were greatly at risk, as displayed by failed Soviet and German sub campaigns there. Even during WW I with British subs it was not an easy ground. Only with introduction of Type XXIII clones it has become better for subs. Narrow waterways also made it possible to use some quite extraordinary measures, such as controlled minefields and asw-nets (which in OTL succeeded closing the Gulf of Finland for almost two years) etc.

Danish straits area is very shallow, even more difficult for subs than English Channel in which the German sub campaign against Overlord Fleet was not a great success.

In WW II those carriers will need to be within 100 miles of the beach, although it would be better to be 50 or less. The fighters & fighter bombers need to be able to loiter in support. Unlike today there's no air-to-air refueling, so the need will always be to rotate planes into and out of the combat zone. The USN would have to carpet the Baltic with carriers to make this work. Even then you are counting on decent flying weather in a part of the world that is not exactly known as a sun drenched paradise.

Even, say 100 miles range does not require carriers to enter Baltic, just the area between Gothenburg and Jutland. Sjaelland and Lolland are quite ideal places to construct airfields for follow-up operations. Also, in difference to the operations in the Pacific the UK would be very close to replenish carriers, which could mean, I would imagine, that carriers could be deployed with aircraft overstrength.

BTW: The Germans regularly used to hit the 8th AF formations with 1000+ fighters, well into 1944. That is the entire fighter force from 17 Essex class ships (2 squadrons of 36 planes each AFTER the Kamakazi threat forced the Navy to increase the fighter force on each carrier by 50%). The 17th Essex wasn't commissioned until November of 1945 (six months after VE Day).

Luftwaffe was already broken before summer of 1944. And, who says that carriers would have to operate anything but fighters (excluding small number of Avengers and Swordfishes for ASW patrol)? If we put air strength requirement for, say, 1500 planes (with ready resupply from British isles doable), this would require, in June 1944 terms, the following carrier air power:

RN Fleet carriers available:

HMS Implacable and Indefatigable - 140 planes total
HMS Furious - 50 planes total
HMS Illustrious class - 220 planes total

Total of 410 planes

RN Escort carriers available:
23 Attacker class - total of 552 planes

RN total strength: 962 planes

USN requirement is thus some 600 planes, doable with USS Ranger (86 planes) and some 20 Casablanca -class escort carriers. USS Saratoga was also not deployed in crucial operations, able to carry some 90 aircraft.

Even when rounds up the requirements, it's still doable with not much carriers taken from PTO. Escort carriers for convoys would have to be ripped off, but then, an invasion and campaign on Baltic and North Germany would end the German U-boat threat in very quick order.

This plan also requires the U.S. to effectively abandon the Pacific to the Japanese. Hawaii would be held, and Australia was, in reality, too big of a bite for the IJA, although taking Darwin can not be ruled out. The U.S. then has to fight all the way acrosss the Pacific AFTER VE day, stretching the War well into 1947. All this to end the European War a few months earlier, assuming that everything goes exactly as it is envisioned. If not, then the Western Allies lose an entire Army Group in a greatly expanded Market Garden style disaster.

With more exact thinking, no I don't think this would require abandonment of Pacific Campaign, though perhaps elimination of dual SW Pac - Central Pac campaign and merging them to a single campaign. Marianas could be taken, but Philippines could be iffy.

As for potential gains, they're quite numerous:

- Elimination of German sub threat in very quick order
- Bonus targets in military sense. Campaign on German soil is much more effective than one in French soil as every bridge span dropped by airpower and every village occupied directly makes effect on German war production.
- Political significance. Attack on Germany direct takes away the motivation of German generals, some of whom justified fighting the Western Allies because of the need to keep Soviets away from German soil.
- Most importantly, looking from just US figures, less Allied casualties. Casualties from ETO were gigantic compared to those of PTO. Not as much French, Dutch or Belgian collateral casualties (although Danish casualties would ensue, they would be less).
- Significant post-war gains, perhaps even an Eastern Europe in Allied hands. With Western Europe not having gone through fighting significantly less need of US economic aid. Germany would be rubble anyway, so no change there.

But I agree, a campaign plan suggested during WW II like this would have been a no-go. The planning process for Overlord was so cumbersome that there's no way that invasion of France would have been swapped for any operation. In Pacific, where there seems to have been less interference, commanders such as Nimitz were able to take risks and change objectives more freely.

You are right in that the U.S. puts carriers into the Gulf, and scares the piss out of itself every time. Those ships are hellishly vulnerable there, despite the fact that they are defended a hundred times better than TF 58 was on her best day during WW II.

Yes, I think that those deployments are made because of the most severe threat to the USN carriers, the USAF... :D

EDIT:

But let's continue this Baltic speculation: After initial landings on Northern Jutland and Sjaelland the follow-up landing will be much easier, as the distance between Sjaelland and Lolland and German proper is just between 10-30nm's, with much easier weather conditions than in English Channel. Baltic also has negligible tides. Thus, instead of Normandy armada just tactical landing craft will do.
 
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Redbeard

Banned
Jukra

You plan is based on too many false asumptions to be woirth risking, far more than I have time to comment.

But for a start, the German defence of Denmark wasn't weak, and the coastal batteries were focused on the Jutland west coast, because going into the Skagerak and down the Kattegat and Great Belt/Oeresund would be so risky for the enemy and so easy for the defender to oppose with other means, that coastal batteries would be much better deployed on the west coast, where you can't count on stopping an invasion fleet on the sea.

5 Divisions in Denmark actually is sufficient, it would be difficult to find room to operate more, and anyway reinforcements can quickly be brought up through Jutland or over the western Baltic (to Zealand/Copenhagen). You must remember that before a very comprehensive, costly and time consuming minesweeping operation (many weeks) the Germans can operate practically unhindered in the western Baltic. Of course there are allied planes with the range to do sorties in the area, but at tremendous cost, and hardly capable of stopping German traffic. If not for other resons then because the Germans can resort to moving mainly at nighttime. In OTL the allied airforces only operated at will over the western Baltic in the very last weeks before the war ended. My father saw RAF Beaufighters sink a German U-boat in the Small Belt in early May 45.

The Baltic (inkl. Kattegat and Skagerak) IS ideal submarine water. Layers of water with different salt contense makes sonar rather inefficient and all the small islands, fjords etc. are excellnt startingpoints and for ambushes and refuges afterwards as well. Not only for subs, but also for torpedoattackcraft. In water where a battleship or cruiser would be grounded a coastal sub actually operates. The small German type I and II mainly used for training in the Baltic would be ideal in the shallow waters, and the larger types have no trouble operating in the Skagerak (300m deep) or Oeresund. The numerous smaller German destroyers (Torpedoboote) and E-boats were specialised for a Baltic environment and would probably mainly operate at night, where allied radar would have difficulties seeing them against the coastline clutter.

I actually do not think a Baltic operation is impossible, by 44 the allies had an overwhelming superiority, but you mention yourself, that such an operation requires the Pacific more or less being put on stand-by because the carriers will be needed in the Baltic. That must give the final answer to why this never was seriously considdered: Why on earth risk so much, when you with a more cautious approach will be certain to win eventually? Normandy was the option to the largest degree utilising the most prominent allied advantage - overwhelming airpower - and with a min imum of cost apart from what already had been invested. Calais would have been slightly less so (and much better defended) but Denmark/the Baltic would be entereing the lions cave with a stick and leaving home your best hunting rifle.

Allied strategy, not at least thanks to Alanbrooke, was about continually applying the growing force of the allies on Germany - tightening the rope but without getting out on a limp. Sticking your main naval force and lift capacity into Baltic together with a significant part of your armies would indeed be the ultimate limp - and probably the best bid for how to have Nazi Germany survive by a 1944 PoD.


Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
But for a start, the German defence of Denmark wasn't weak, and the coastal batteries were focused on the Jutland west coast, because going into the Skagerak and down the Kattegat and Great Belt/Oeresund would be so risky for the enemy and so easy for the defender to oppose with other means, that coastal batteries would be much better deployed on the west coast, where you can't count on stopping an invasion fleet on the sea.

Well, according to http://www.atlantikwall-denmark.de the fortifications even in Jutland were very weak, certainly the amount of coastal artillery was not impressive. Moreover, east side of Jutland, Sjaelland etc. were almost completely unfortified.

5 Divisions in Denmark actually is sufficient, it would be difficult to find room to operate more, and anyway reinforcements can quickly be brought up through Jutland or over the western Baltic (to Zealand/Copenhagen). You must remember that before a very comprehensive, costly and time consuming minesweeping operation (many weeks) the Germans can operate practically unhindered in the western Baltic.

RN operated a run to Göteborg throughout the war, so I doubt the mining could be compared to minefields either in the Channel or in Gulf of Finland.
Besides, Swedish territorial waters could be used with either Swedish consent or without it.

As for amount of troops, considering size of Denmark five divisions is a very small amount, especially if you count that five divisions of 1944 vintage had just 10 regiments. In comparison, Finnish Army operated during beginning of the Winter War some 25 regiment equivalents in Karelian Isthmus, a land area of much more difficult terrain and much smaller than Denmark.

Essentially, entire German forces in Denmark were of same size as Allies could by 1944 throw in by airborne assault. And I'm in very much doubt that German forces posted to Denmark were exactly top notch troops.

Of course there are allied planes with the range to do sorties in the area, but at tremendous cost, and hardly capable of stopping German traffic. If not for other resons then because the Germans can resort to moving mainly at nighttime. In OTL the allied airforces only operated at will over the western Baltic in the very last weeks before the war ended. My father saw RAF Beaufighters sink a German U-boat in the Small Belt in early May 45.

One has to take into account Allied subs and light and heavier naval craft too, and of course the fact that even in Denmark the night is quite short in June (checking from sunset calculator sun sets in 08.47 PM and rises at 3.30 AM at June 6 1944).

The Baltic (inkl. Kattegat and Skagerak) IS ideal submarine water. Layers of water with different salt contense makes sonar rather inefficient and all the small islands, fjords etc. are excellnt startingpoints and for ambushes and refuges afterwards as well. Not only for subs, but also for torpedoattackcraft.

Sure, there's difficulties but during short summer nights, probably not insurmountable. Light naval craft have always been overrated, especially when operating under enemy air superiority, as displayed by German and Finnish experience against Soviets in 1944 or German experience against Allies in Normandy.

Why on earth risk so much, when you with a more cautious approach will be certain to win eventually? Normandy was the option to the largest degree utilising the most prominent allied advantage - overwhelming airpower - and with a min imum of cost apart from what already had been invested. Calais would have been slightly less so (and much better defended) but Denmark/the Baltic would be entereing the lions cave with a stick and leaving home your best hunting rifle.

Allied campaign in France took time, and it was known that it took time even just because of logistical considerations. A campaign in Germany would be quicker to destroy German ability to wage war, and also would be a tremendous morale blow for Germany. Every day in ground combat meant serious casualties for Allies as well as Germans, including heavy civilian casualties. Historically it could be said that Western Allied campaign came to virtual standstill in Autumn 1944 until Spring 1945. During that time Germany could equip yet another armies to resist Western Allies and Soviet Union.

With Sjaelland, Northern Jutland and probably Southern Sweden as airbases airpower would come to play very heavily.
 
Invading Denmark is a quick way to die. Luftwaffeunits in Germany proper, the Netherlands, Denmkark och Norway will be able to interdict the landings.

The kriegsmarine was down, but not out. It still had plenty of surfaceships in the Baltic and OTL many of them protected the evacuations of civilians from the Red Army.

Germany had two bases nerby, Kiel and Wilhelmshaven. They surley would have a lot of subs to use. And every sub based in France and the lowcountries and Norway would be put in the North sea near Denmark.

It is also a great way to bring Sweden in on Germanys side since Swedens only lifeline with other countries depended on the North Sea. Apperantly we struck a deal with Germany and UK to allow ships in a narrow corridor, maximum of 5 going in each directions.
 
After Sjaelland the Berlin is just one trans-shipment and from Wismar it's 250km's to Berlin. Additionally, with entrance to Baltics, Poland, Baltic Countries and Finland could be wrested from Soviet control. France could be liberated by Dragoon. It would not be inconceivable at all that Sweden would join the conflict, providing significant additional basing areas and also effectively ending the small threat from Norway.

Finland was never under Soviet controll, it was a free democracy
 
What is the advantage of this proposal over Overlord? If it's explained somewhere in the posts above, I did not understand it. Can somebody explain? Thanks!
 
What is the advantage of this proposal over Overlord? If it's explained somewhere in the posts above, I did not understand it. Can somebody explain? Thanks!

The main advantage being, of course, that it's a scenario which has not been discussed very often.

The advantage over Overlord would be more efficient use of ample naval power available to allies, avoiding the logistical problems of supplying advancing armies from France to Germany, bonus use of tactical airpower, greater effect on morale, and finally, a lodgement more to east than OTL, causing Stalin to get less of Eastern Europe.
 
Invading Denmark is a quick way to die. Luftwaffeunits in Germany proper, the Netherlands, Denmkark och Norway will be able to interdict the landings.

The kriegsmarine was down, but not out. It still had plenty of surfaceships in the Baltic and OTL many of them protected the evacuations of civilians from the Red Army.

Germany had two bases nerby, Kiel and Wilhelmshaven. They surley would have a lot of subs to use. And every sub based in France and the lowcountries and Norway would be put in the North sea near Denmark.

It is also a great way to bring Sweden in on Germanys side since Swedens only lifeline with other countries depended on the North Sea. Apperantly we struck a deal with Germany and UK to allow ships in a narrow corridor, maximum of 5 going in each directions.

Kriegsmarine by 1944 (or 1943) was completely outnumbered by Allied armadas. By summer of 1944 Kriegsmarine had no major surface combatants, just immobilized Tirpitz and pocket battleship Lützow and Scheer and heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen. Her destroyer forces comprised just of 19 torpedo boats, many of which were in Norway or France, and 23 destroyers, many of which were in either Norway or France.

Remember KM sub and surface campaign against Normandy landings? They had months to prepare for it and it did not turn out very good. Even casualties to mines were quite low. As for subs from France, they would have to go round Britain, for starters. Luftwaffe by Summer of 1944 would have been no match even for Allied carrier based air power, much less for additional air power available from air bases in Great Britain, and after initial landings, based in Denmark proper.

Sweden joining Nazi Germany, especially in 1944, is ASB stuff. An allied invasion of Denmark would re-open it's trade links to the West. It is more conceivable that Sweden would be pressured to join Allies instead, as there would be very little what Germany could do about it. German offensive capabilities in Norway and Northern Finland were small, moreover, the forces there could not be resupplied. Southern Sweden would be very useful for Allies to use as an air and naval base.

Yes, Finland was not under direct Soviet control during the Cold War, but in 1944 the Allied Supervisory Committee was the law of the land and keeping Finnish independence was a very close run thing. Finland could not, for example, accept Marshall aid.
 
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