Baltic Aircraft Industries

I was recently reading about how, on the eve of WWII, all of the Baltic states (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia) were in the middle of developing their own aircraft. I thought this was particularly interesting. Theoretically, say that the Soviets (for whatever reasons) doesn't occupy the Baltic states, allowing them to develop their own fighters and other military airplanes. What are some possible results?

Also, I saw listed a Lithuanian aircraft designer by the name of Jurgis Dobkevičius. He designed and tested 3 aircraft-Dobi I, Dobi II, and Dobi III. His designs were very interesting and were monoplanes in the 20s, which was a rare feat for the time. However, he tragically died in a crash involving the Dobi III of his design. Now say that he had lived on and the plane hadn't crashed. Would he have developed more advanced fighter designs? Could, possibly, little Lithuania become a leader in aircraft design come WWII?

Discuss.
 
Well the inner sections of the wings of the Dobi-III are swept slightly, so the guy's survival might eventually see Lithuania with a pretty fast aircraft.
 
Well, if the Baltics can be kept somehow as 'independent' Warsaw Pact states after the war as opposed to directly annexed into the USSR, this guy's brilliance might be drafted into the Soviet weapons development system, and Lithuania might end up with the aircraft factories for one reason or another (say they end up being less damaged by conflict) post-War.
 
Well the inner sections of the wings of the Dobi-III are swept slightly, so the guy's survival might eventually see Lithuania with a pretty fast aircraft.

That's what I was thinking. The swept wings would likely enhance the effectiveness of Lithuanian aircraft design to the point where, come WWII, Lithuania would have a very competitive aircraft industry.
 
Without detracting from the Dobi designs, they were strut-braced monoplanes, not cantilever. A more distinctive aspect of the Dobi III was its all-moving tailplane, a requirement of supersonic aircraft. However, they probably lacked exotic wind-tunnel facilities to detect flutter prior to flight. Karl Irbitis, in Latvia, built the I-16 cantilever monoplane, capable of 300 mph on a puny Walter Sagitta engine as in the Fokker D-XXIII, but the Fokker had two of them and was still underpowered. The factory had plans for full-size, but they needed a motor. There is no Baltic aero-engine factories, so they would have to beg for foreign power from a foreign power. Hard to do when the best engines are somebody else's top priority. Karl moved to Canada and designed the flight controls for the VTOL machine.

vef_i-16.jpg
 
Without detracting from the Dobi designs, they were strut-braced monoplanes, not cantilever. A more distinctive aspect of the Dobi III was its all-moving tailplane, a requirement of supersonic aircraft. However, they probably lacked exotic wind-tunnel facilities to detect flutter prior to flight. Karl Irbitis, in Latvia, built the I-16 cantilever monoplane, capable of 300 mph on a puny Walter Sagitta engine as in the Fokker D-XXIII, but the Fokker had two of them and was still underpowered. The factory had plans for full-size, but they needed a motor. There is no Baltic aero-engine factories, so they would have to beg for foreign power from a foreign power. Hard to do when the best engines are somebody else's top priority. Karl moved to Canada and designed the flight controls for the VTOL machine.

I don't know about the engines; it seems like the Baltic-designed aircraft seemed to possess engines built within the states or at least within access.
The aircraft reached the prototype stage, and were intended for production, so I would assume a plan was procured to purchase/license-build engines.

Out of curiousity, what is the aircraft in the picture?
 
Without detracting from the Dobi designs, they were strut-braced monoplanes, not cantilever.
At a time when virtually everyone else in the world was still producing bi-planes, and any that weren't were using cantilever, monos as well, this isn't too bad though.

There is no Baltic aero-engine factories, so they would have to beg for foreign power from a foreign power. Hard to do when the best engines are somebody else's top priority.
Well de-Havilland was prepared to licence or sell their Gipsy engine to the Poles and Italians, so I don't see any great barrier preventing the Baltics from buying a few as well.
 
I don't know about the engines; it seems like the Baltic-designed aircraft seemed to possess engines built within the states or at least within access.
The aircraft reached the prototype stage, and were intended for production, so I would assume a plan was procured to purchase/license-build engines.

Out of curiousity, what is the aircraft in the picture?

The aircraft in the picture is the one I named and described, the VEF I-16. The engine was a Walter engine manufactured in Bohemia. The Dobis were powered by Benz engines as far as I know. The availability of engines would depend on political affiliation and relying on foreign supply is not a sure thing when you are surrounded by potential enemies.

Control of the VEF factory was taken by communists within the factory prior to the Soviet take-over. They did not repaint the I-16's markings, but the Germans did when they took over.
 
The aircraft in the picture is the one I named and described, the VEF I-16. The engine was a Walter engine manufactured in Bohemia. The Dobis were powered by Benz engines as far as I know. The availability of engines would depend on political affiliation and relying on foreign supply is not a sure thing when you are surrounded by potential enemies.

Control of the VEF factory was taken by communists within the factory prior to the Soviet take-over. They did not repaint the I-16's markings, but the Germans did when they took over.

Ah. The I-16. Sorry, I couldn't read the tiny text on my phone, so I missed when you mentioned it.

However, if Lithuania were to acquire engines from Germany, I doubt that would be much of a problem. It could have engines shipped to it via East Prussia without issue. Also, if Lithuania & the other Baltic states weren't absorbed by the USSR as in OTL, then they'd likely side with the Axis to defeat their imposing communist neighbor. Which would make finding a powerplant for indigenous aircraft that much easier.
 
If the Baltic states were to develop an indigenous air force to counter the Soviet Union, there would have been a smoking hole in the ground where the air force was. The VEF factory was taken before the Soviet take-over, by indigenous communists. There is a catch-22 situation involved where, if they fight, they lose. If they do nothing, they lose. The original premise was that they were not taken over by the Soviets, but building military aircraft would guarantee that the premise was not fulfilled. Being small countries without the infrastucture of established manufacturing countries would guarantee that they could not compete on ambitious civil projects, leaving them with niche markets that nobody else was filling. By infrastructure, I'm refering to all the parts that an aircraft manufacturer does not manufacture, from rivets to engines. They could build a few planes but to build an industry requires a steady uninterrupted supply which is an unlikely event.
 
I see the only real possibility for a competitive Lithuanian (or Baltic in general) military aircraft industry is if Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia form a common defence bloc and all three contribute, otherwise I see start-up costs as too expensive without foreign aid. And if you have foreign aid, they'll probably see a big cut. Great powers would probably copy the design (if it isn't kept super-secret, and even then...) or reverse engineer them. The best monetary result is if they sell licences to build the aircraft to other nations. But overall, they don't have a lot of many to throw around, so Lithuanian designers would likely go elsewhere.
 
I see the only real possibility for a competitive Lithuanian (or Baltic in general) military aircraft industry is if Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia form a common defence bloc and all three contribute, otherwise I see start-up costs as too expensive without foreign aid. And if you have foreign aid, they'll probably see a big cut. Great powers would probably copy the design (if it isn't kept super-secret, and even then...) or reverse engineer them. The best monetary result is if they sell licences to build the aircraft to other nations. But overall, they don't have a lot of many to throw around, so Lithuanian designers would likely go elsewhere.

I was thinking the same thing too, with the defensive bloc. Perhaps they produce aircraft for themselves or even other low-level European nations (Norway, Denmark, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland) or Asian/African/South American nations (Iran, Iraq, China, Afghanistan, Brazil, Argentina, etc). Think about it-Lithuanian Aircraft intercepting Me-109s over Norway. Definitely an interesting concept.
 
I was thinking the same thing too, with the defensive bloc. Perhaps they produce aircraft for themselves or even other low-level European nations (Norway, Denmark, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland) or Asian/African/South American nations (Iran, Iraq, China, Afghanistan, Brazil, Argentina, etc). Think about it-Lithuanian Aircraft intercepting Me-109s over Norway. Definitely an interesting concept.


I think a unified Baltic state would be better able to defeat the Soviets, heck carve out a modern Poland-Lithuania, and make the little Entente work and they might have a shot...
 
I think a unified Baltic state would be better able to defeat the Soviets, heck carve out a modern Poland-Lithuania, and make the little Entente work and they might have a shot...


I somewhat agree; however, it depends on both the timing and who's involved. If just Germany invades this alliance, starting with Poland, then they probably will have a struggle, but not much of an issue. Keep in mind that the Nazis were at their weakest at the beginning of the war. The same goes for the Soviets; their tactics were sub-par due to the purge of officers in the 30s, and they weren't so fantastic in battle, as displayed in the Winter War with Finland. But these points are moot if the nations are invaded before mid-1941; by then, they'll have procured enough materiel to fight off the advances of either nation, but Poland and the Baltic states simply win't be prepared before then. Also, a combined Soviet-Nazi invasion like in OTL would be too overwhelming for the 4 nations. The only way they could escape something like THAT would be to immediately surrender and evacuate their militaries to nearby Finland where they could fight the Soviets from exile. They could also send their own air forces from Finnish fields to bomb the Soviets.
 
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