Balkanized France post-1066

Zioneer

Banned
Is there any way for France to become balkanized soon (a few years to a decade or two) after 1066, as a indirect/direct result of William the Conqueror, (one of their former vassals) becoming King of England? Perhaps a dispute about Normandy that involves several dukes?

England may become balkanized in this scenario as well, correct?
 
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Typo

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France -was- Balkanized during the middle-ages, with some of the fiefdoms owing theoretical allegiance to the king of France. It wasn't up until after the hundreds war that it centralized.
 
Is there any way for France to become balkanized soon (a few years to a decade or two) after 1066, as a indirect/direct result of William the Conqueror, (one of their former vassals) becoming King of England? Perhaps a dispute about Normandy that involves several dukes?

England may become balkanized in this scenario as well, correct?

France was a far from united kingdom in 1066. In theory, it was all under the rule of the Kings either directly or indirectly, but in practice the local dukes and barons had considerable autonomy. For instance, even after they conquered england, the normans (in theory) owed fealty to the kings on Ile de France. But in practice, the royal domain was the Ile de France, with the fiefdoms of the nobles enjoying generally wide autonomy.

Now, for a way to keep the status quo, an easy way is to remove Philip II Augustus, thereby setting back the unification of france by decades or centuries. However,r emoving him will have major impacts on european affaris immediatly (for starters, no Bouvines: Otto is probably never deposed). I suppose that, with an early enough POD, you could arrange a situation where Capetian soverignty is entirely fiction and they are merely one of many lords, but sooner or later the region will probably unify under some banner or other.
 
I could easily see a situation where the King of England holds a major chunk of 'French' territory, as he did for hundreds of years. If 'England' holds e.g. the northwest, the Burgundians stay around and hold the east, and the south stays effectively independent or allied to Aragon and/or Savoy, you could easily have 5 significant powers in OTL's France, with the King in Paris being, possibly even, the least of them.
 
I could easily see a situation where the King of England holds a major chunk of 'French' territory, as he did for hundreds of years. If 'England' holds e.g. the northwest, the Burgundians stay around and hold the east, and the south stays effectively independent or allied to Aragon and/or Savoy, you could easily have 5 significant powers in OTL's France, with the King in Paris being, possibly even, the least of them.
Do you think it's possible to permanently remove France through a combination of Angevins, Burgundy, Aragon and HRE?
 
Do you think it's possible to permanently remove France through a combination of Angevins, Burgundy, Aragon and HRE?

It wouldn't be too hard. However, I don't think Aragon would be involved. Rather I would suggest something like having England and the Angevin Empire and hold territorial integrity long enough for it to become near unchallengeable as a unified system (in terms of claiming parts of it for France/other states, I don't mean militarily or politically), have the Albigensian heretics succeed in holding out to create their own independent Kingdom of Toulouse, then have the Burgundians take control over Champagne - easy enough to do this by a land/title grant I guess, or through inheritance. Provence, the Dauphine, etc I guess would revert to the HRE. The hard bit is deciding what to do with Paris as anyone who owns it is going to claim the French royal dignity. To my mind the best thing to do is, perhaps some decades or even centuries down the line from the Angevin Empire's formalisation, have the King of England inherit the throne. Likely by this point the AE's territories won't be considered French vassals anymore, rather individual states in union with England, and so a very small rump France with barely any powerful vassals left would just become an English appendage.
 
Another idea occurs to me: while the Capets were quite good at ensuring dynastic succession, officially, the position of "King of France" was an elected position.

My proposal would be to have France essentially become about as balkanized as the HRE, that is to say, within the framework of a "Frankish Kingdom", have the individual lords be effectively independent (Toulouse, Poitiers, Champagne and Bourgogne already were anyway).
 
In an age of nationalism, could Ile-de-France consider itself "France," with Normandy deriving its national identity in part from the Vikings, Occitania from Albigensianism, and some "Founder Effect" for Burgundy?
 
In an age of nationalism, could Ile-de-France consider itself "France," with Normandy deriving its national identity in part from the Vikings, Occitania from Albigensianism, and some "Founder Effect" for Burgundy?
Sure, IMO.

Mind you, I think 'France' would be bigger than just 'Ile de France' - probably including Orleans, and maybe Berry?

Also, why would there be 'an age of nationalism'? OTL, the whole concept of 'nation' (=a people) being the same as a 'state' (a political unit) comes in large part from England and France. If England/Britain is a multi-lingual empire, and 'France' is a tiny piece of 'french' speaking lands, the whole concept may be just a madman's dream.
 
Is there any way for France to become balkanized soon (a few years to a decade or two) after 1066, as a indirect/direct result of William the Conqueror, (one of their former vassals) becoming King of England? Perhaps a dispute about Normandy that involves several dukes?

England may become balkanized in this scenario as well, correct?

How about you just reverse the luck of the Hohenstaufens and Capetians lol. Maybe take away the external threat of England as an impetous for the French nobles to unite behind a throne.
 
Avoid the birth of Phillippe II or Louis VI.

Either will kleep France balkanised. ( or under the thumb of the HRE)
 
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