Aztec Empire timeline (rough draft)

[zoomar]

Ok, how about this?

The Chinese arrive, like it`s been suggested, in the first half of the fifteenth century. Instead of having a conquistador mentality, the Chinese desire to become allies with the Aztecs. Trading gold and various other things, the Chinese give the Aztecs musket, gunpowder, and ship technologies. (If the Aztecs have any kind of skill at copying technology, such as the Japanese, they`ll catch on quick. And, if I`m not mistaken, gunpowder could be feasably created in the Mexico area then, with sulfur deposits from local volcanoes.) Let`s also say that a plague sweeps through the Empire fairly early, which gradually immunizes the Aztecs from such diseases. This prompts the Aztecs to reform their religion early (with, as I said before, outlawing such things as human sacrifices).

I would also think that, if the Chinese introduced the horse to North America, it could exist in significant numbers by the time of Cortes` arrival, a hundred years after the Chinese. Could these PODs lead up to Cortes arriving in a significantly more advanced Aztec Empire in 1519, with the Aztecs possessing such as firearms, mounted troops, and a small navy?

I still believe the 1400's is too late for the effects of a plague to be over by 1519, unless Mexico becomes something of a Chinese/native mix, with the loss of native population offset by significant Chinese immigration and settlement. Of course then, you are looking at something quite different from the Aztec Empire. Also, I don't see why the Chinese (who were fully as convinced as the Spanish of their cultural superiority over everybody else - and WERE as superior to the Mesoamericans in social organization and technology as the Spanish) would do anything other than establish a very one-sided and exploitative relationship with Mexico. I also doubt that the Aztec reaction to these plagues you describe would be to "reform" their religion. If anything it would get more demanding of sacrifice - unless the Chinese stopped it.

You need to remember that, at its highest, Mesoamerican civilization was barely a bronze age culture, and in major technological innovations, was rooted entirely in the stone age. As Norman correctly notes, technology had not changed since Olmec times (and in fact one could argue that, in most critical respects, it had not changed since the first farmers started growing corn 5000 years ago in Tehuacan Valley). While they might have adapted to, and adopted Chinese technology over a fairly long period of contact, to have that happen over little more than 100 years, is highly unlikely. It's true the Japanese went awfully far in 100 years, but I would argue the difference between Japan in 1850 and 1950 is far less than between Mesoamerica and Eurasia in the 15th century.

Put the Chinese in Colima in AD 1000 and I might be happy.

 

[Tetsu]

Most of those points are excellent points indeed, but I based the Aztec`s desicion to reform their religion on the assumption that a Bronze Age culture, such as they were at their demise, would not be able to come to any other conclusion about a catastrophic plague than that it was the wrath of the Gods, but I certainly could be wrong. With no germ theory, no concept of communicable disease, or really any concept of what was killing them, what would be a logical conclusion they could have drawn? Perhaps, even, certain high-level priests, could have had a "revelation" on the subject?

 

[David S Poepoe]

It may be a little hard to come by these days, but Steve Jackson Games did a fairly good GURPS book titled GURPS Aztec. It was the general source of my research when I did my ATL. There would actually be several epidemics that would decimate all Mesoamerican societies not just the Aztec, also the diseases that arrive from the Orient will be different than those from Europe. Only constant contact over a prolonged period of time will build up an immunity to those diseases you've already encountered.

There usually won't be a major religious change as you suggest unless there is an alternative. The high priests aren't going to be very progressive thinkers, unless influenced by another religious source. Perhaps Buddhism makes significant inroads.

Another work to look for is Kirk Mitchell's New Barbarians. In this ATL the Roman Empire goes to war against the Aztec Empire. As mentioned elsewhere human sacrifice is the core of their faith, so one would expect that it would be the last thing they will give up.

There is also the time hopping comicbook series Aztec Ace, which includes a storyline about the Aztecs becoming so agitated over something that they have massive sacrifices. So many that the society is seriously weakened by the time of Cortez's arrival and is wiped out altogether.

 

[DominusNovus]

Most of those points are excellent points indeed, but I based the Aztec`s desicion to reform their religion on the assumption that a Bronze Age culture, such as they were at their demise, would not be able to come to any other conclusion about a catastrophic plague than that it was the wrath of the Gods, but I certainly could be wrong. With no germ theory, no concept of communicable disease, or really any concept of what was killing them, what would be a logical conclusion they could have drawn? Perhaps, even, certain high-level priests, could have had a "revelation" on the subject?

They would likely see such plagues as the wrath of the gods, which would, in all likelyhood, prompt them to further sacrifices.

 

[Tetsu]

Well, in the world of religion, anything can happen. Perhaps a sect of Aztecs surfaces that are against human sacrifices (maybe this group has more Buddhist leanings) and causes a rift in Aztec society? A civil war, in which this sect is victorious? I can`t really see any other alternatives on the abolition of human sacrifice, but I`m open to suggestions.

 

[DominusNovus]

Well, in the world of religion, anything can happen. Perhaps a sect of Aztecs surfaces that are against human sacrifices (maybe this group has more Buddhist leanings) and causes a rift in Aztec society? A civil war, in which this sect is victorious? I can`t really see any other alternatives on the abolition of human sacrifice, but I`m open to suggestions.

Well, having human sacrifice be banned sounds like hand waving to me. We want it banned, so we bend the timeline to fit that.

But, that best I can think of is that whoever brings the plagues (Europeans, Chinese, whatever) is so disgusted with the sacrifices and tries to convince the Aztecs to stop. Said explorers are duly sacrificed, but not before accidently infecting some of the populace. As most of the population is dead or dying, people start to think that maybe this is the gods' punishment (as before). However, they'll likely draw the connection between the plagues and the outsiders. This could lead to several possible conclusions:

1) The outsiders were evil, and they are to blame for the plague.
2) The outsiders were good, and this is the punishment for sacrificing them.
3) The gods' are disgusted with human sacrifice in general and punished the Aztecs.
4a) The gods' wanted more sacrifices and decided to take their own sacrifices (through the plague).
4b) The gods' took enough sacrifices that the people no longer need to sacrifice their fellow man to the gods.

I'm sure there's some more out there.

 

[Tetsu]

I know it must seem like I`m trying too much to outlaw the human sacrifices, but I guess I am. The end result I want is to have the story work; a mid-Twentieth Century Aztec Empire up to the technology of the rest of the world, and preferably without certain messy religious practices.

 

[DominusNovus]

I know it must seem like I`m trying too much to outlaw the human sacrifices, but I guess I am. The end result I want is to have the story work; a mid-Twentieth Century Aztec Empire up to the technology of the rest of the world, and preferably without certain messy religious practices.

We could always have some missionaries get swept over in a storm early on. That could be a valid POD in and of itself (especially if they have horses and smallpox). You could have a muslim or christian aztec empire. It'd probably be better to go with a christian one, simply because, if it was islamic, you'd have the aztecs trying to get to Mecca, to make their pilgrimages.

 

[Tetsu]

Not a bad idea. (I think the Christain Aztec Empire would be a bit easier to do, as well.) But what about a Buddhist Empire? A Chinese presence could easily make this happen, over a period of time.

 

[MerryPrankster]

"if it was islamic, you'd have the aztecs trying to get to Mecca, to make their pilgrimages."

That'll certainly stimulate inter-Americas travel, though probably lots of Aztecs will die before they finally get across the Atlantic.

 

[Mr.Bluenote]

On the other hand, would an Aztec Empire without all the nasty habits really be an Aztec Empire? I mean it could just as well be United Native American States or something? Human sacrifices are vile, as all sacrifices btw are, but it's part of the Aztecness, yes?

An evil Aztec Empire in, say, 1800 with a relative modern military, some industry, large farms/plantations teeming with slaves, hugh pyramids where a lucky choosen one is to meet the Gods once a month or so and annual ritual combats and/or blood sport matches between clans/states/what not, would have a certain appeal, would it not?

Regards etc etc!

- Bluenote.

 

[Tetsu]

I suppose that isn`t too bad of an idea; perhaps instead of an all-out ban, simple regulations would suffice. A once-a-month ritual, in which some unfortunate criminal is sacrificed wouldn`t be too bad.

 

[Mr.Bluenote]

I suppose that isn`t too bad of an idea; perhaps instead of an all-out ban, simple regulations would suffice. A once-a-month ritual, in which some unfortunate criminal is sacrificed wouldn`t be too bad.

It would give it that special Aztec-feel, would it not? And yes, of course, criminals! Why didn't I think of that?

I'm looking forward to see what you come up with, Tetsu!

The best of regards!

- Bluenote.

 

[DominusNovus]

I suppose that isn`t too bad of an idea; perhaps instead of an all-out ban, simple regulations would suffice. A once-a-month ritual, in which some unfortunate criminal is sacrificed wouldn`t be too bad.

Grrr. I had thought of that too (sacrificing criminals). Ya beat me to it though.

Interesting parellel here: Romans condemning criminals to death in the arena.

 

[Tetsu]

Yeah, I`d thought a bit about the Roman parallel before. I`d say sacrificing criminals wouldn`t really make anyone else in the world too angry, and would allow the Aztecs to keep the core of their beliefs. Besides, the Aztec punishment for most crimes was either enslavement or death anyway.

 

[Phaeton]

Great timeline, slow it down a bit and make it more detailed and you got yourself an good piece of work.

 

[Diamond]

R.E. sacrificing criminals:

I could be mistaken, but wasn't the purpose of Aztec sacrifices to give the strongest, most worthy victims to the gods? That's why they in OTL purposely didn't conquer certain tribes in eastern Mexico, so that they'd have a pool of 'brave, free, noble enemies' to appease the gods. Sacrificing a thief or a rapist seems like a substandard meal for Quetzalcoatl; will the priesthood go for it?

 

[Tetsu]

Great timeline, slow it down a bit and make it more detailed and you got yourself an good piece of work.

Thanks for the kind words. However, since I hadn't really expected this timeline to resurface, I've been working on a different timeline for a while now. My core goal is still the same, (have an Aztec superpower by the 20th century) but after fiddling with the timeline for a few months, the world I ended up with was one incredibly different than ours, while the orginal timeline I had written here was basically the same world, just with Native American nations.

I'll post my new timeline (which is a good 1,300 years long) when I finish and touch up the details, which, with summer approaching, should be soon.

 

[Anthony Appleyard]

OTL the Aztec emperor Nezaualcoyotl (spelling?) banned human sacrifice, but it came back after he died.
OTL in the Inca Empire one Inca army commander rode about on a captured horse.

 

[Anthony Appleyard]

Spain is thus kept out of South America, and attacks Muslim North Africa instead. This leads to an ATL that I wrote about earlier: This starts a scramble for North Africa. The native population including in Egypt is very low, and mass immigration soon pushes the European population of North Africa and Egypt to well over 50%. Ditto later in Syria and Iraq. In Egypt and south Iraq, Hindu Indians shipped from Gujarat etc add to the non-native proportion. The south Iraq marshes are drained and are settled largely by non-natives. Israel arises a long time before OTL and includes Transjordan, and Sinai east of the Wadi al Arish. Europeans poking about find all the oil including in Arabia. Attempts at Muslim fightbacks lead to messy attacks and counterattacks culminating in a march on Mecca. Nearly every fit native man in Arabia turns up to fight for the holiest place in Islam. The Middle East settlers get into difficulties on the battlefield in Arabia, and Britain has to send help. After European armies land at Yanbu al Bahr and Jidda, it is 9 days before a sergeant of the Royal Lancashire Fusiliers can finally erect the Union Jack on the ruins of the Ka`ba and 17 days before the built-up area is cleared of resistance. (But Muslims say 29 days, going by the last date scrawled on a wall by a Muslim holdout group sealed in the basement of the Grand Mosque.) After that it is an easier march through the Tihama to Aden.

Arabia's native Muslims are left so short of men of anywhere near military age that it a very long time before they can recover. The ancestors of the OTL Hashemite family and Bin Laden family and many others lie dead on the huge battlefield.

Central and South America get no European settlers (but they adopt the Roman alphabet for writing and this causes a big burst of literary activity). But Egypt is largely European with a Hindu minority; an OTL Egyptian time-line-jumps to this ATL and goes from the transit place to his home in Abu Kabir; he is not pleased to find placenames such as Peterville, Jack's Polder, Krishnapur, and suchlike, and Naut-en-Suten (a scholarly Ancient Egyptian translation of the name of Kingston near London where the place's settlers came from), and when he reaches Abu Kabir it is named New Barnsley. Near Helwan he finds that Egypt has its own aircraft industry; but that place is called Vimanapura and no name in the language of the religion of the Prophet.
Native Muslims are mostly found in patches and isolated areas, but more of them in the south; for example Edfu is almost like in OTL.

In Syria there are at the time a surprisingly large amount of Christian natives who still speak Aramaic at home. The education language in such areas is changed from Arabic to Aramaic, and this splits the solidarity of the natives.

Israel would have friendly neighbors. It could send a respectable-sized army to fight in WW2, or all these differences butterfly Hitler and Nazism away.