Lets say rather than cortez some less competent conquistador is charged with conqureing the Aztecs he doesn't gain help from the other natives and he doesn't pull the famous "I can make the sun go away" trick, when he is defeated will the aztecs replicate the guns and Iron swords, or just be conqured by someone else
Aztec empire survives
- Thread starter Mister Abbadon
- Start date
Philip
Donor
They will still have to deal with a disease-decimated population.
Not without some outside help.
They'd have to capture/hire miners and smiths first.
check out
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/i/dean-ing/other-time.htm
(that's a 1 person ISOT), but some concepts could be used.
Not to mention the amount of trouble that's been stirred up among their subject population by the Spanish; an Aztec Empire that's so badly weakened by disease is going to have a hard time dealing with other hostile native groups like the Tlaxcalans.
Aztecs have no chance to reverse-engineering captured Spanish technology on their own; it's hard to figure out the secrets of iron-smithing by looking at a steel sword, and guns would be even worse.
Not to nitpick, but Cortez conquered the aztecs on his own authority. He was originally supposed to conduct a trading mission, and barely even made it to Mexico. His first real reinforcements were Spanish soldiers sent to capture him who he defeated and integrated into his forces.
Depends on when and how the Spanish lose (if the tlaxcallans wipe them out is different from if they die escaping from tenochtitlan, which is different from an expedition never launched). Many innovations are going to be tough to replicate, but some may be possible, especially if some spaniards are captured/defect. Cavalry is probably out (not enough horses), steel is unlikely, as is gunpowder (though both are possible). Crossbows, though, are possible, especially if in the wake of the spanish defeat the tlaxcallans crumble. The impact on mesoamerican warfare in terms of tactics will be interesting as well.
Crossbows will be a bit difficult to manage without ironworking; even if the Aztecs manage to eventually create a crossbow out of wood and stone, it wouldn't be remotely comparable to an arbalest.
Captured Spaniards would probably end up as sacrifices rather than sources of information, and as Dathi THorfinnsson kind of pointed out, any captured Spanish soldiers probably wouldn't have the skills to teach the Aztecs much even if they wanted to.
Perhaps some escaped slaves join up with the Aztecs. The African civilizations certainly had iron working technology, and no love for the Spanish. What if one of the Slaves was a village blacksmith back in Africa and escaped to join the Aztecs?
Can't really do anything about the disease, besides biological PODs. Those are always complicated, and won't result with Aztecs around at all. Considering the butterflies.
Can't really do anything about the disease, besides biological PODs. Those are always complicated, and won't result with Aztecs around at all. Considering the butterflies.
There aren't that many African slaves in the Indies in 1520 IIRC.
I think the only scenario that makes this vaguely plausible would be trade over a longer period (and does it have to tbe the Aztecs? they weren't exactly popular in the neighbourhood) If the Spanish had opened trade relations, as had been the original instructions, the epidemics and culture shock would still have happened, but the local state would have had the chance to react and adapt. It's not a given that it would work, but it is at least thinkable. In the medium term I doubt vassalisation is avoidable, but without the gold of the conquistadors, the European conception of how to go about colonising the New World is liable to be a different one, so we might also see surviving native states elsewhere, as a regular feature of how things are done.
I think the only scenario that makes this vaguely plausible would be trade over a longer period (and does it have to tbe the Aztecs? they weren't exactly popular in the neighbourhood) If the Spanish had opened trade relations, as had been the original instructions, the epidemics and culture shock would still have happened, but the local state would have had the chance to react and adapt. It's not a given that it would work, but it is at least thinkable. In the medium term I doubt vassalisation is avoidable, but without the gold of the conquistadors, the European conception of how to go about colonising the New World is liable to be a different one, so we might also see surviving native states elsewhere, as a regular feature of how things are done.
Perhaps Chinese/Japanese/Mongol/Whatever travellers from Asia instead? Less desire to conquer by Fire and the Sword (in the Chinese case at least), less religious revulsion at the Aztec practices (not that they aren't going to be disgusted by the human sacrifice, but, hey! What can you do? They're barbarians.). Of course, Chinese/Japanese/whatever regularly travelling to the New World will screw up history in _other_ ways, but I think the chances that the relationship will remain one of trade rather than conquest would be rather better than with the Europeans.
Bruce
Valdemar II
Banned
The Pacific Ocean is double as broad as the Atlantic. There's a reason that European fishermens fish at New Foundlands coast, while you didn't see the equalant in the Pacific Ocean.
yeah, lack of metalworking will be an issue. that said, i know the spaniards were at one point manufacturing crossbow quarrels during the siege of tenochtitlan. Not sure if they ever taught the natives to build actual crossbows, but it is a start.
As for the captured spaniards, I wouldn't be so dismissive of the possibility of some aiding the aztecs or other nations, either voluntarily or involuntarily. There are enough cases of that happening IOTL. They probably aren't enough to transform a mesoamerican army to a spanish one on their own, but they could have some impacts on technology. Their greatest impact, however, would probably be their familiarity with spanish arms and tactics, which could change the ways the aztecs fight significantly.
Probably, but they can learn to fight horses. Some Amerindian groups made long spears and attached captured spanish swords to them, in order to make long pikes, like the ones which alowed peoples like the Swiss or the Flemish to defeat cavalry.
Guns aren't going to be made, at least at firsty, but they weren't very effective back then.
I think the best they can learn is fighting technics. Once they have mastered those, the technological gap isn't that important. The Mapuche were never conquered by the Spaniards, and hey had a weaker political organization and less population than the Aztecs. They won because they were more flexible than the Aztecs in finding new ways of fighting the Spaniards. The fact that some of them were familiar with large domesticated animals like llamas might have helped them to master the art of horseridding more easily, though.
A v quick Google search
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=aztec+metallurgy&meta=&aq=4&oq=aztec+metal
Seems there was definitely good work in silver, and in areas of the empire also in copper
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=aztec+metallurgy&meta=&aq=4&oq=aztec+metal
Seems there was definitely good work in silver, and in areas of the empire also in copper
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Anaxagoras
Banned
I think it's worth pointing out that, had the entire expedition of Cortez been wiped out (say, during the escape from Tenochtitlan), that's over a thousands Spaniards dead, which would seriously deplete the available manpower in the Caribbean at the time. The Spanish aren't going to be launching another expedition against the Aztecs anytime soon, even if they had wanted to.
I agree with those who say that the Aztecs would have had an extremely difficult time adapted Spanish technology. They simply didn't have the available knowledge, nor was their culture one in which technological came easily.
But , even IOTL, they did show a remarkable ability to adapt to Spanish tactics. Realizing from bitter experience how great an advantage the enemy cavalry gave them, the Aztecs changed tactics and forced the Spanish to engage in house-to-house fighting, where their cavalry was not of much use. They also devised clever tactics for disabling the small ships the Spanish had constructed on the waters around the city.
So, if Cortez and his men are killed and/or sacrified, you will have at least a decade, if not longer, for the Aztecs to absorb the immense cultural shock the invasion would have produced, endure the first and worst wave of the smallpox epidemic, and reassert their authority over the subject tribes that had allied with the Spanish.
Even in the later days of the campaign, the subject peoples remained in terror of the possibility of Aztec vengence. On one particular occasion, when the Spanish suffered a significant tactical defeat (resulting in dozens of Spanish soldiers being sacrificed in full view of their comraces), most of the Indian allies fled the theater of war and could only be cajoled back when it became clear that the Spanish were still in business.
I agree with those who say that the Aztecs would have had an extremely difficult time adapted Spanish technology. They simply didn't have the available knowledge, nor was their culture one in which technological came easily.
But , even IOTL, they did show a remarkable ability to adapt to Spanish tactics. Realizing from bitter experience how great an advantage the enemy cavalry gave them, the Aztecs changed tactics and forced the Spanish to engage in house-to-house fighting, where their cavalry was not of much use. They also devised clever tactics for disabling the small ships the Spanish had constructed on the waters around the city.
So, if Cortez and his men are killed and/or sacrified, you will have at least a decade, if not longer, for the Aztecs to absorb the immense cultural shock the invasion would have produced, endure the first and worst wave of the smallpox epidemic, and reassert their authority over the subject tribes that had allied with the Spanish.
Even in the later days of the campaign, the subject peoples remained in terror of the possibility of Aztec vengence. On one particular occasion, when the Spanish suffered a significant tactical defeat (resulting in dozens of Spanish soldiers being sacrificed in full view of their comraces), most of the Indian allies fled the theater of war and could only be cajoled back when it became clear that the Spanish were still in business.
I was thinking in terms of a north-Pacific route, in pusuit of said fish and furs (the Russians made good money OTL selling furs to the Chinese, so there definitely was demand). It's a lot shorter hop from NE Siberia to the Alaskan island chain: Russians OTL made it in very crappy little boats.
Bruce
Valdemar II
Banned
Yes it is but the lenght travel so enoumous that it would be comparative to the East India trade, and that would be while they had a major fur producing source closer by (Siberia)