Axis Victory Kirchenkampf - religion in Nazi Germany if they win?

Kirchenkampf is basically the situation that Christian churches found themselves in under Nazi rule. Hitler wanted to nazify the whole country in all aspects of society and the churches were one of the very few institutions that were capable of resisting, which naturally caused tension and disagreement. Pragmatically the Nazis decided not to push the issue to its conclusion before the war, but apparently Hitler may have had plans to do it after:

Some historians maintain that Hitler's goal in the Kirchenkampf entailed not only ideological struggle, but ultimately the eradication of the church.[2][3][4] Other historians maintain no such plan existed.[5]

Alan Bullock wrote that "once the war was over, [Hitler] promised himself, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian churches, but until then he would be circumspect".[90] According to the Encyclopædia Britannica, Hitler believed Christianity and Nazism were "incompatible" and intended to replace Christianity with a "racist form of warrior paganism".[13]

So let's say the the Reich wins and is top dog in continental Europe, lording over lands from the English channel to the A-A line or thereabouts, and lasts until collapsing in 1980 or so. What would be their religious policy in this situation? I know they preferred non-denominational belief as opposed to outright atheism, for one thing. They'd probably try to get as many people to leave their churches as possible, or at least join a sufficiently Aryan form of Christianity like the German Evangelical Church.

But HOW will they do this, exactly? What actions are they most likely going to take to stamp out church influence? How will policies differ in regards to Protestant churches and the Catholic Church? How successful will the Kirchenkampf be if the Nazis have won the war?

Please share whatever thoughts you have about this and discuss!
 
And yes, I know that some of the big fish like Himmler and Rosenberg were partial to paganism and occult bullshit in general, which was also prevalent in the SS, but that seems to have been outside the norm. Hitler derided it.
 
Rosenberg was not a pagan or even really an occultist. He had some bizarre mystical views, but in 'Myth of the Twentieth Century' he doesn't advocate for a return to paganism. Instead you get bizarre clap trap about the 'race soul', Aryan Atlantis and Jesus being an Aryan whose message was perverted by the 'Jewish World Conspiracy'. Himmler did have pseudo-pagan views, but he was very cautious with expressing them in public. When he talked about the godhead, he called it Waralda, God Almighty, Providence etc. He did, however, not want atheists in the SS.

Contrary to common cliches, paganism and occultism were not pervasive in the SS. It also didn't influence Himmler's policies much beyond ordering farcical archaeological digs, and 'historical' studies and wanting to turn the Wewelsburg into his own Camelot. Hatred for the Christian churches, however, was quite prevalent. Heydrich, for example, was an anti-Catholic fanatic. SS members who left the church didn't join pagan cults, but just declared themselves 'gottgläubig', which means 'believing in god'. In the words of Heydrich, it meant religiosity unbound by the Christian churches. It could mean anything from being a non-church affiliated Nazi Christian to being a pantheist to worshipping Odin or some other pagan deity.

As for what form Kirchenkampf would take, certainly not pagan temples. However, the policies pursued by Gauleiter Arthur Greiser, a militant enemy of the churches, in the Wartheland are a good model for a full-on Kirchenkampf the more 'radical' elements might pursue. In many ways it was a testing bed for such policies, endorsed by Himmler and Bormann.

In short, Greiser used various bureaucratic measures to reduce the influence of the Catholic church, aiming to essentially expel it from public life. Churches were reduced to the status of private associations, which means church tax was abolished. Germans moving to the Wartheland had to formally reapply to join the church there if they wanted to be members, and it was made very difficult for young men to join monasteries. Only adults were supposed to be able to join a church and had to submit a declaration in writing. This made infant baptism illegal.

This was obviously also tied to Greiser's anti-Polish policies since Catholicism was an important part of Polish identity and the Wartheland was to be totally 'Germanised', but it also affected Germans. Indeed, this caused issues since many Christian Germans were offended by these measures, which made the Gau less attractive for settlers. Many Polish priests were arrested and sent to prisons, forced labour or concentration camps. Church property was seized, and religious shrines were destroyed, public masses banned and public worship restricted to early morning hours on Sunday.

Furthermore, churches were restricted from collecting money from parishioners, church-run schools closed and their charitable institutions incorporated into the National Socialist People's Welfare organisation. Moreover, the Catholic and Protestant churches in the Wartheland were forced to severe their international allegiances and be run on purely national lines. Crosses and statues of saints disappeared from streets and squares, and worship was only permitted behind closed doors. The cathedral in Poznan was closed for services and used to store looted church property.
 
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Garrison

Donor
I would imagine they will worship whichever god it was that materialized and performed the miracle that let them win the war...
 
I would imagine they will worship whichever god it was that materialized and performed the miracle that let them win the war...
I'm picturing some kind of weird Aryan Space Bat hovering above Berlin.
Rosenberg was not a pagan or even really an occultist. He had some bizarre mystical views, but in 'Myth of the Twentieth Century' he doesn't advocate for a return to paganism. Instead you get bizarre clap trap about the 'race soul', Aryan Atlantis and Jesus being an Aryan whose message was perverted by the 'Jewish World Conspiracy'. Himmler did have pseudo-pagan views, but he was very cautious with expressing them in public. When he talked about the godhead, he called it Waralda, God Almighty, Providence etc. He did, however, not want atheists in the SS.

Contrary to common cliches, paganism and occultism were not pervasive in the SS. It also didn't influence Himmler's policies much beyond ordering farcical archaeological digs, and 'historical' studies and wanting to turn the Wewelsburg into his own Camelot. Hatred for the Christian churches, however, was quite prevalent. Heydrich, for example, was an anti-Catholic fanatic. SS members who left the church didn't join pagan cults, but just declared themselves 'gottgläubig', which means 'believing in god'. In the words of Heydrich, it meant religiosity unbound by the Christian churches. It could mean anything from being a non-church affiliated Nazi Christian to being a pantheist to worshipping Odin or some other pagan deity.

As for what form Kirchenkampf would take, certainly not pagan temples. However, the policies pursued by Gauleiter Arthur Greiser, a militant enemy of the churches, in the Wartheland are a good model for a full-on Kirchenkampf the more 'radical' elements might pursue. In many ways it was a testing bed for such policies, endorsed by Himmler and Bormann.

In short, Greiser used various bureaucratic measures to reduce the influence of the Catholic church, aiming to essentially expel it from public life. Churches were reduced to the status of private associations, which means church tax was abolished. Germans moving to the Wartheland had to formally reapply to join the church there if they wanted to be members, and it was made very difficult for young men to join monasteries. Only adults were supposed to be able to join a church and had to submit a declaration in writing. This made infant baptism illegal.

This was obviously also tied to Greiser's anti-Polish policies since Catholicism was an important part of Polish identity and the Wartheland was to be totally 'Germanised', but it also affected Germans. Indeed, this caused issues since many Christian Germans were offended by these measures, which made the Gau less attractive for settlers. Many Polish priests were arrested and sent to prisons, forced labour or concentration camps. Church property was seized, and religious shrines were destroyed, public masses banned and public worship restricted to early morning hours on Sunday.

Furthermore, churches were restricted from collecting money from parishioners, church-run schools closed and their charitable institutions incorporated into the National Socialist People's Welfare organisation. Moreover, the Catholic and Protestant churches in the Wartheland were forced to severe their international allegiances and be run on purely national lines. Crosses and statues of saints disappeared from streets and squares, and worship was only permitted behind closed doors. The cathedral in Poznan was closed for services and used to store looted church property.
Sounds about right. With the suppression of Christianity, the Nazis would most certainly tout a "replacement" that's so pure and Aryan, going right back to the roots of the religion. Stuff like Positive Christianity, for instance.
 

Garrison

Donor
I'm picturing some kind of weird Aryan Space Bat hovering above Berlin.

Sounds about right. With the suppression of Christianity, the Nazis would most certainly tout a "replacement" that's so pure and Aryan, going right back to the roots of the religion. Stuff like Positive Christianity, for instance.
In all seriousness I suspect this is pretty much it, you will have something that incorporates the pagan/SS faux cultism into something that resembles Christian iconography to keep the German Christians in line.
 
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Garrison

Donor
How successful do you think these measures would be in the long run?
Not very. Given that Himmler's mythology reads like a bad D&D campaign and is blatantly heathen to the Christians. If there's still a Pope somewhere outside of Nazi control he is bound to denounce it. I imagine that its at best skin deep and if Nazi control extends to areas where Islam is the dominant religion things are likely to get nasty very quickly, of course given the Nazi attitude they may have gotten bad already if the Nazis decide that all Semitic peoples are subhuman.
 
How successful do you think these measures would be in the long run?

Not that much. I think it would be quite skin deep. Was the average German super devout and ready to go on the barricades when the government attacked the churches? Definitely not, but most Germans still saw themselves as Christians in one form or another.

When the Party tried to impose heavy-handed anti-church measures, such replacing crucifixes in public spaces with Hitler's image, it sparked protests in places. Public disapproval was high enough that Nazi party bigwigs backed off in 1941. Of course, they did this because they had a war to win and thus couldn't afford public discontent. But it's still pertinent.

In the case of the Wartheland, Greiser's anti-church policies were ironically at odds with his 'Germanisation' policies. His fiefdom was majorly Polish, he wanted to get Poles out and colonise it with Germans, but the measures such as these were a turn-off for Germans he was trying to persuade to settle there.

Moreover, whatever they seek to replace Christianity with will be rather...bland. It's Himmler's poorly articulated pseudo-pagan cultism, or, I guess, Hitler cult on steroids. The most hardline enemies of the churches - Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann - aren't exactly charismatic. And Rosenberg is utterly irrelevant. The most successful result would be a lot of resentment, with the clergy being controlled via bureaucratic measures, with church dogma tainted by Nazi tenets and churches infiltrated with police agents instead of the full-on introduction of whatever weird cultism they come up with. If they go full Cultural Revolution it wouldn't go well.

The reason the Nazis got as far as they did, among other things, was that they potrayed themselves as 'defenders of the occident against godless Bolshevism' and successfully coopted established institutions in German public life. The Confessing Church opposed their attempts to Nazify Christian theology...but didn't condemn the 9 Novemver pogrom. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was an extremely rare and very courageous exception. An open witch hunt would cause discontent and threaten stability.

Not very. Given that Himmler's mythology reads like a bad D&D campaign and is blatantly heathen to the Christians. If there's still a Pope somewhere outside of Nazi control he is bound to denounce it. I imagine that its at best skin deep and if Nazi control extends to areas where Islam is the dominant religion things are likely to get nasty very quickly, of course given the Nazi attitude they may have gotten bad already if the Nazis decide that all Semitic peoples are subhuman.

Nazis didn't view Arabs in the same manner as Jews. As early as 1935 the Ministry of Propaganda was instructing the German press to avoid terms such as anti-Semitic in favour of anti-Jewish since Semites included Arabs. This instruction was reiterated by Goebbels in 1942, when the Ministry's Anti-Semitic Action was renamed the Anti-Jewish Action. Later even the Racial Policy Office of the NSDAP came around.

Himmler and Hitler expressed admiration for Islam, but it was full of Orientalist cliches and basically a projection of Nazi 'virtues'. Himmler's view seems to have boiled down to: 'Islam is great because Muhammad had the smart idea of promising paradise, wine and women to martyrs. This is perfect for a soldier because then he doesn't fear death. Thus it's a good religion for a race of manly men. If only our ancestors had embraced Islam instead of flabby Christianity.' This seems to have been echoed by Hitler. There's an anecdote where he supposedly says it would have been better if the Arabs had won at Tours (or maybe it was the Ottomans at Vienna, either or), but then follows this up by saying that, of course, Muslim Germans would have ended up dominating them due to being 'superior'.

Funnily enough, in 1943 Himmler asked the RSHA and Gottlob Berger if there were any passages in the Qur'an that could be used for manipulative purposes to galvanise Muslim support in North Africa and foment a Mahdist revolt by depicting Hitler as a prophesied saviour such as the Mahdi. They came up short, but apparently the propaganda ministry printed a million copies of an RSHA propaganda pamphlet saying Hitler was a returned Jesus who'd come to slay the Jewish Dajjal for this absurd, quixotic effort. It's as stupid as it sounds. Funnily enough Muslim SS units got imams while their German SS comrades had to do without Christian chaplains.

Nazi Germany - not just some elements in the Heer - made an effort to win over Muslims in North Africa, the Balkans (an SS unit composed of Bosnian Muslims) and in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union. But, for starters, they only had limited access to Muslim populations. Central Asia is far away. Moreover, as with the Kaiserreich's failed efforts to incite jihad in World War One, their view of Muslim groups was incredibly stereotypical, since they lumped them together as a monolith, which led to a lot of bloviating about how Germany was Islam's one true friend and how Muslims should rise up against the 'anti-Islamic' allies.

Moreover, their promises remained rather shallow - and one imagines the locals noticed this. The Crimea was supposed to be colonised, and while the plans for the Caucasus were less set in stone than say the Ukraine since 'Aryan warrior farmers' were not supposed to settle there, it was meant to become a colony of some form under a Reichskommissar. So they'd only really offer token concessions, but no real independence. And North Africa was supposed to be Italy's playground and most of it was ruled by Vichy France. When the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met Hitler in the Reich Chancellery, they exchanged platitudes, but Hitler wouldn't commit to an independent Palestine, and only promised to get rid of its Jews.
 
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I think over time one would the systematic packing of church administrations and hierarchies with Nazi surrogates. "Public" figures would be weak-kneed time-servers, while the administrative staffs would be actively working for the regime. There would be a gradual purge from seminaries of anyone not conforming to the Nazi scheme, and then from the ranks of the clergy. Textbooks and catechisms would be rewritten to fit. Eventually the "public" figures would also be eager Nazis as well.

Of course all this assumes Germany is somehow victorious in the war, and somehow economically viable afterward.
 
Honestly, I feel like the nazi's would just continue with trying to subvert religions present in their empire, but not fully getting rid of them. They did have Positive Christianity that was used in the Protestant churches and they'd have a bit more control over these churches, but even then, unless they just outlawed anything but state churches, most people would be against this. As for the Catholic church, I think you'd see many persecuted, but you'd probably have one or two bishops or priests who might tow the line of the Nazis' or at least not criticize them. If the Nazi's just went full anti-catholic they'd alienate many in southern Germany and Austria, and so I think they'd just have a troubled relationship, but neither would probably try to get too critical, especially those in the church who might fear that speaking out might lead them to their doom.
 
Honestly, I feel like the nazi's would just continue with trying to subvert religions present in their empire, but not fully getting rid of them. They did have Positive Christianity that was used in the Protestant churches and they'd have a bit more control over these churches, but even then, unless they just outlawed anything but state churches, most people would be against this. As for the Catholic church, I think you'd see many persecuted, but you'd probably have one or two bishops or priests who might tow the line of the Nazis' or at least not criticize them. If the Nazi's just went full anti-catholic they'd alienate many in southern Germany and Austria, and so I think they'd just have a troubled relationship, but neither would probably try to get too critical, especially those in the church who might fear that speaking out might lead them to their doom.
I firmly believe the Nazis would have gone full anti-Catholic. I did read once Hitler had plans for a showdown with the Catholic Church after the war. Wikipedia's article on it summarizes things nicely;
Nazism could not accept an autonomous establishment whose legitimacy did not spring from the government, and desired the subordination of the church to the state.[60] Although Article 24 of the NSDAP party platform called for conditional toleration of Christian denominations and the Reichskonkordat with the Vatican was signed in 1933 (purportedly guaranteeing religious freedom for Catholics), Hitler considered religion fundamentally incompatible with Nazism.[61] His hostility to the church indicated to his subordinates that continuation of the Kirchenkampf would be encouraged.[62]
So we'd most certainly see a heavy crackdown on the Catholic Church by a victorious Nazi party. I feel like China provides a good example of what this would look like; a state-run church meant to ensure the loyalty of the Catholics in Germany. Or they just get rid of it all.

Catholicism will probably go underground, like with the Japanese Christians. It'll survive, but won't look anything like it does today, that's for sure.
 
Hitler and Religion,
That's strange relationship..

You have the Hitler who sworn on God and Country on Public speeches during elections, and never mentions God ever again in speech after he became Führer.
Then is Hitler the author in Mein Kampf, he despise christianity and Islam as sects of Judaism, who all together has to be destroy at any cost.
it even went so far in 1941 as Himmler ask what to do with islamic people once the Jews were exterminated, Hitler reply "One and same vermin"
This give you view into horribly mindset this man had !

But oddly Hitler gave never alternative Religion to replace christianity Islam and Jewish religion.
it speculated by historians what that maniac really wanted,
Himmler approach by installing pagan religion ? Hitler never made a statement about that effort.
Neider on atheism.
Führer Cult as new religion was suspected by Historians, but again, no info or statement by Hitler.

What ever he really envisioned, Hitler took that Idea into his grave in 1945
 
I firmly believe the Nazis would have gone full anti-Catholic. I did read once Hitler had plans for a showdown with the Catholic Church after the war. Wikipedia's article on it summarizes things nicely;

So we'd most certainly see a heavy crackdown on the Catholic Church by a victorious Nazi party. I feel like China provides a good example of what this would look like; a state-run church meant to ensure the loyalty of the Catholics in Germany. Or they just get rid of it all.

Catholicism will probably go underground, like with the Japanese Christians. It'll survive, but won't look anything like it does today, that's for sure.
Might be interesting as a German underground church would be much closer to orthodox Catholicism than the German church today.
 
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