Awesome PODs that you wish got more attention

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
What had Humphries choked on the tear gas seeping into his room (and fallen and hit his head or something)?
What is McCarthy was hit on the head during a Convention floor scuffle and died of an unnoticed haemorrhage?

Or both?
 
- No Deng Xiopheng reforms. PRC doesn't go the way of North Korea, but is no more developed/successful than Cuba.

Ummmm.

In per capita terms, Cuba is far more developed than China. Take a gander at the World Bank stats if you don't believe me.

The PRC achieving Cuban levels of per-capita wealth and industrialization would be a huge success relative to OTL.

Interestingly enough, boosting the Chinese economy by that much (resulting in a Chinese economy 43% larger than OTL's 2016 China), would not put it ahead of the USA - China would be 3.5 trillion USD short.

fasquardon
 
Ummmm.

In per capita terms, Cuba is far more developed than China. Take a gander at the World Bank stats if you don't believe me.

The PRC achieving Cuban levels of per-capita wealth and industrialization would be a huge success relative to OTL.

Interestingly enough, boosting the Chinese economy by that much (resulting in a Chinese economy 43% larger than OTL's 2016 China), would not put it ahead of the USA - China would be 3.5 trillion USD short.

fasquardon
Interesting. Do you know a better equivalent to what I've been trying to say?
 
According to Pierre Salinger, RFK's Presidential Campaign Manager, one his aides said this about RFK going through the Kitchen: "I've got to get the message to Los Angeles, under no circumstances should Bobby go through that (Ambassador Hotel) kitchen ... there's usually grease on the floor. He's going to fall or something."

What if RFK had slipped before Sirhan Sirhan had shot? It's a perfect set up.
 
Interesting. Do you know a better equivalent to what I've been trying to say?

Hm. India maybe? Since 1990, the Indian economy has increased over 5-fold while in the same time the Chinese economy has increased almost 15-fold. So Indian-level growth would certainly be worse performance, but nonetheless better than North Korea's probable performance.

fasquardon
 
Hi, sorry for bringing this up, but Thorpe wouldn't have had a relationship with Tatchell or Proctor. Neither were his type. Whilst not to say that he couldn't have gone for them, it's unlikely he would have, as he was mainly interested in having sex with young men beneath his social status who he could wind tightly around his finger. Luke may be an option but I don't know anything about him, but Tatchell and Proctor weren't really his type. They would have also been too young during the period he was really active, and by the time he would have met them, they wouldn't have been the kind of people he had sex with. I also doubt they'd be interested in doing it in public.

An interesting PoD involving Thorpe and Norman Scott, though, is what had Scott decided to not tell his friend about his intention to kill Thorpe and commit suicide in December '62, and went through with it?

A number of very good points there and thanks for enlightening me. Christopher Luke is a (very) right wing activist who has indicated that he was in a relationship with James Molyneaux, former UUP leader. I take your point about the type of young men that Thorpe preferred but ultimately he underestimated Scott and this finished his political career. What if he had underestimated someone who would in course of time have become much more formidable? Remember that we now see Proctor, Tatchell and, to a lesser extent, Luke as figures with most of their career behind them whereas in 1971 say (year Tatchell came to London as a draft dodger) these were all obscure young nobodies with most of their careers before them.
My real point though was that Thorpe was seen by the intelligence services as a stabilising force within British politics and was protected from exposure until the scandal became uncontainable. If he were to take up with an agent of the Russians or the Rhodesians, or someone of either very far right or far left views he might be seen somewhat differently. Even if it was unlikely that Thorpe would have been so influenced by his associations, I suspect that if the police/intelligence establishment had simply decided not even to expose him but to cease to protect him, he could have been outed much sooner than he was OTL.
Thorpe being murdered in 1962 would be a fascinating POD but I fear that Scott was dramatizing the situation and never had any real intention of going through with it.
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
A number of very good points there and thanks for enlightening me. Christopher Luke is a (very) right wing activist who has indicated that he was in a relationship with James Molyneaux, former UUP leader. I take your point about the type of young men that Thorpe preferred but ultimately he underestimated Scott and this finished his political career. What if he had underestimated someone who would in course of time have become much more formidable? Remember that we now see Proctor, Tatchell and, to a lesser extent, Luke as figures with most of their career behind them whereas in 1971 say (year Tatchell came to London as a draft dodger) these were all obscure young nobodies with most of their careers before them.
I can see it- Tatchell it probably the best bet for such a scenario, and I'd probably say that a Thorpe without the baggage of Scott would be more willing to continue his engagements with men of Scott and Tatchell's caliber into this period. Whilst Thorpe was in relationships at this point (IIRC), a lot of them were with people he trusted wouldn't tell and avoided his previous habits of picking up young men due to the stress that Scott was causing him.

He can underestimate Tatchell, Proctor, and Luke, obviously- I'm not saying hard and fast that he would never go to them- but a PoD that would see them enter a relationship would likely need to butterfly the Scott affair, if only so Thorpe never learns from that experience.
My real point though was that Thorpe was seen by the intelligence services as a stabilising force within British politics and was protected from exposure until the scandal became uncontainable. If he were to take up with an agent of the Russians or the Rhodesians, or someone of either very far right or far left views he might be seen somewhat differently. Even if it was unlikely that Thorpe would have been so influenced by his associations, I suspect that if the police/intelligence establishment had simply decided not even to expose him but to cease to protect him, he could have been outed much sooner than he was OTL.
Yeah of course, I get that.

How far back does Luke claim he and Molyneaux go? This might be beneficial for a certain event...
Thorpe being murdered in 1962 would be a fascinating POD but I fear that Scott was dramatizing the situation and never had any real intention of going through with it.
Scott was arrested with the gun (or it was found in his possession, I'll need to check) after his friend called the police- whilst Scott may have been more dramatic simply because he was drunk, there is a fair bit there to suggest he was seriously intending to do something.
 
So Thorpe in 62 looks reasonably likely then. That could be interesting, even if only injured but engulfed in scandal. Not only for itself but would it have set a trend? What if some abused or exploited young men had taken Scott as a role model? Assassination or assassination attempts on Cyril Smith, Janner, Peter Morrison? Possibly some bigger butterflies -more gun conscious security at Chicago in 1968?
Don't know how far back Luke and Molyneaux went but to those in the know Molyneaux had a number of relationships. Used to share a flat with a rising young Conservative MP called Harvey Proctor back in the eighties. Very discreet though and kept that side of his life in London (and earlier in Belfast one presumes). In his constituency (which was also his birthplace -my mother could remember him developing photos in the chemists in Crumlin pre WW2) lived a life of quiet bachelor respectability. One of the prime movers in hounding James Kilfedder out of the UUP I am told. Kilfedder was also gay but extremely indiscreet -sex scandal waiting to happen and his death (some would aver hushed up suicide) took place in the week before the Sunday World was due to do a full exposure. I am sure the security services were well aware of Molyneux's proclivities but he was probably regarded as the least worst leader of the UUP at the time, right wing, integrationist, monarchist and unlikely to support measures like an Ulster UDI.
 
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