Avoiding Lost Decades: A Modern History (1979-2019)

I find it difficult to believe a China without Hong Kong would even need to attack if they were economicly successful, the reason Chine currently controls Hong Kong is because of the economy, Hong Kong depends heavily on China and for that to happen, China needs to be a better off country.

Read what I said to stevep, I said that China with a strong economy isn't a fool to attack other countries, they want a stable government, so they could gain economic benefits.

If they are economicly successful, they could easily control Hong Kong's business through pressure to do what they want and in Hong Kong, business is very powerful. The PRC is currently doing this in OTL.

I find it very doubtful these things could occur like you said with a wealthy China.

Well even OTL China won't pass the US for fifty years or so in total GDP if the US can keep something like a 3% growth rate—and that's with more than three times the population, which would still leave the US with three times the per capita GDP.

China might seem wealthy, but on a per capita basis outside the coastal urban strip they're really not.

Also I've pointed out several times to you the difference between government and people, let's say something along the lines of a short victorious war would go a long ways to solving the ATL government's problems.
 
Well even OTL China won't pass the US for fifty years or so in total GDP if the US can keep something like a 3% growth rate—and that's with more than three times the population, which would still leave the US with three times the per capita GDP.

China might seem wealthy, but on a per capita basis outside the coastal urban strip they're really not.

I know this all too well, I've seen this for myself, but we aren't arguing about Chinese wealth and American wealth this is irrelevent to our conversation.

Also I've pointed out several times to you the difference between government and people, let's say something along the lines of a short victorious war would go a long ways to solving the ATL government's problems.

Actually, a short victorious war in Hong Kong, does far more damage to the chinese government then it'll help. The PRC knows this, they might as well invade themselves. I think a better idea is for the PRC to pressure Hong Kong for reunification through economic means, even without a war, the reunification would go a long way to calm a lot of people.

BTW, was it really you who pointed this out? I thought it was someone else.
 
Have you checked the earlier version of this TL (Japan Dodges the Bubble), which was linked to earlier in this thread? It might answer some of your questions about that.

Hmmm... I didn't notice, I'll read it when I have time, though I'm very skeptical about any plausible and early entrepreneur spirit coming too fast, but nevertheless, I apologize to the Electric Monk for my foolish mistake regarding this subject if I find something regarding this aspect of the Japanese economy.
 
Actually, a short victorious war in Hong Kong, does far more damage to the chinese government then it'll help. The PRC knows this, they might as well invade themselves. I think a better idea is for the PRC to pressure Hong Kong for reunification through economic means, even without a war, the reunification would go a long way to calm a lot of people.

Let's wait until I actually get to it, ok? I have enough of a background in the timeline that I consider the PRC's actions reasonable (to them, at least). And Hong Kong is not the flashpoint of this particular conflict—it just spirals in.

The PRC government can resist nationalist pressure as long as it remains resolute—but there's no particular guarantee that they'll stay resolute.

I know this all too well, I've seen this for myself, but we aren't arguing about Chinese wealth and American wealth this is irrelevent to our conversation.

You said that free trade is a net economic gain for both countries (true) and that the American middle class can go get another job if they lose their current one (true, but it'll be at Walmart making a third the money with no benefits) as long as it helps out the Chinese.

I said that China's rural poor aren't going to be helped anyway, and that on a per capita basis China is still a long way from catching up to the Western world.

I never said there'd be less free trade, or that China as a whole would be worse off. They're not going to the world's second largest economy in PPP anytime soon ITTL but a stronger Japan/US/Europe will naturally help out China.
 
Let's wait until I actually get to it, ok? I have enough of a background in the timeline that I consider the PRC's actions reasonable (to them, at least). And Hong Kong is not the flashpoint of this particular conflict—it just spirals in.

The PRC government can resist nationalist pressure as long as it remains resolute—but there's no particular guarantee that they'll stay resolute.

Alright, we'll argue over it when we actually get to it. I still disagree with you greatly though.


You said that free trade is a net economic gain for both countries (true) and that the American middle class can go get another job if they lose their current one (true, but it'll be at Walmart making a third the money with no benefits) as long as it helps out the Chinese.

I disagree, there are plenty of white-collar jobs about that the chinese can't replace.

I said that China's rural poor aren't going to be helped anyway, and that on a per capita basis China is still a long way from catching up to the Western world.

I disagree, in a per capita basis, China has more people that can feed themselves. In China, many rural folks migrate to the city for jobs in manufacturing, they then send the money back home to their family which is generally at least enough to feed them.

I come from a family that's originally rural poor in China and I can tell you first hand that you have it completely wrong. While they generally aren't that better off, they now have enough to get by.

I never said there'd be less free trade, or that China as a whole would be worse off. They're not going to the world's second largest economy in PPP anytime soon ITTL but a stronger Japan/US/Europe will naturally help out China.

I'd say that I find this China difficult not to be worst off, the CCP uses economic wealth to please the middle class and nationalism is second just in case the economy is down.

BTW, are you counting the EU as a country in PPP and are we still talking about 2018 when the PRC invades Hong Kong?

If you aren't counting the EU and you're thinking in terms of 2018, then I'd say it definitely isn't better off in OTL.
 
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The Sandman

Banned
Well, I'll wait to see what Electric Monk has planned, but my guess is that, aside from the obvious "no return of Hong Kong in '97", China might actually be doing a bit better economically.

My assumption regarding the war is that the issue is that, with the economy doing better (more Japanese investment is possible, to add to the US and European investment), other problems come to the fore...like the corruption of the government, the environmental horror story, the fact that the central government in Beijing isn't really responsive to local concerns, the increasing independence of local government from national oversight, etc.

The CCP may be going for some sort of "rally 'round the flag" effect to try to remain in power.
 
BTW, are you counting the EU as a country in PPP and are we still talking about 2018 when the PRC invades Hong Kong?

If you aren't counting the EU and you're thinking in terms of 2018, then I'd say it definitely isn't better off in OTL.

There is no EU in this timeline.
 
Bishop,

Even if China does worse in TTL, huge numbers of Africans and Latin Americans who can't sell their crops abroad b/c of Western farm subsidies will be better off, so the two might balance out.

China is not the only country in the world, even if it does have the largest population.
 
Bishop,

Even if China does worse in TTL, huge numbers of Africans and Latin Americans who can't sell their crops abroad b/c of Western farm subsidies will be better off, so the two might balance out.

China is not the only country in the world, even if it does have the largest population.

I guess I am having a hard time seeing a neo-Maosist China and an end to subsidies.

An end to subsidies indicates support for free trade, possibly on a greater scale than OTL; but how does that lead to a Maoist resurgence in China?
 
We seem to have lost contact with the Joint Fleet.
Suddenly loose all contact with the fleet? That would imply the Chinese have nuked it... and hence the poms will be more than within their rights to respond in kind.
 
I guess I am having a hard time seeing a neo-Maosist China and an end to subsidies.

An end to subsidies indicates support for free trade, possibly on a greater scale than OTL; but how does that lead to a Maoist resurgence in China?

They're certainly not neo-Maoist—they don't particularly believe power comes from the barrel of the gun, China (like IOTL) moves in the ATL to a professional military, and so on (I'm using the Wiki's definition of Maoist—assuming they're roughly right, the ATL Chinese government isn't even close).

Dropping subsidies for rich farmers[1] is unrelated to the Chinese government's outlook—and besides, subsidies effect the Caribbean, Latin American, and Africa far more than China.

Suddenly loose all contact with the fleet? That would imply the Chinese have nuked it... and hence the poms will be more than within their rights to respond in kind.

The BBC loses contact with the fleet.




[1] Something like 3/4 of the American farm subsidies go to the richest 10% of farmers. Under the modern structure basically the bigger your farm the more money you get—even if you stopped growing crops, or switched to a different one.

A farm safety net for the rural poor is one thing, free (albeit taxpayer) money for people who don't need it is another.
 
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Avoiding Lost Decades: Teaser #2

New York Times
Archival Stories Search (Terms: China UK "Hong Kong") (Limits: "Major Stories Only Include Medium Business Stories" "November1983–February1984")


UK Rejects China's Hong Kong Offer. A7. November 17, 1982.

Hong Kong Property Market Down 10%. B1. November 18, 1983.

China Issue Referendum Held In Hong Kong. A9. May 2, 1983.

Hong Kong Favors British Control. A8. May 3, 1983.

Sino-British Negotiations On Hong Kong Resume. A12. August 29, 1983.

Westminster: Full Confidence In Hong Kong Negotiations. A14. October 2, 1983.

Handover Off The Table Declares British Parliament. A17. October 27, 1983.

China: New Territories Dispute Drags In Portugal's Macao. A19. January 21, 1984.

UK Nationalizes Hong Kong! A1. February 1, 1984.

China's Denouncement: "British Move Rash & Destabilizing". A1. February 1, 1984.

UK Officially Refuses To Hand Over The New Territories. A7. February 1, 1984.

Citizens Of Hong Kong Now British Subjects. A7. February 1, 1984.

Hong Kong Dollar Replaced By British Sterling In Three Years. B2. February 1, 1984.

Hong Kong Stock Market Suspends Trading. B2. February 1, 1984.

Jardine Matheson Expresses Confidence, Announces New Construction. B2. February 1, 1984.

Japanese Investment Group Makes Major Hong Kong Property Buy. B4. February 2, 1984.

Hong Kong Market Reopens, Rallies. B1. February 6, 1984.

China Compromises On Hong Kong Problem. A2. February 24, 1984
 
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Avoiding Lost Decades #1: Corruption & Scandal & Reform! Oh My!


The Economic Consequences of the Mitsubishi/Dai-Ichi Kangyo Bank Scandal From 1979 to 1984
©1991 Tokyo University
Tokyo University Economics Department
Original Edition: Tokyo University Press, Tokyo: 1991
English Translation: Wallflower Press, New York: 1992

On November 17th, 1979 the Mitsubishi Bank Ltd, one of the major banks of Japan, was undergoing a routine examination by a low level government employee of the Ministry of Finance. This procedure involved a wide but shallow forensic examination of an arcane section of the Mitsubishi Bank's loan agreements to their corporate partners. At the time the Ministry of Finance was operating in a distinctly friendly manner towards the banking system nominally under their regulatory jurisdiction and Mitsubishi Bank had nothing to worry about as any discrepancies discovered were smoothed away.

If the proper hierarchy in the Ministry of Finance had been functioning the report filed by this junior employee would be seen by his immediate supervisor only. However, the filed report was flagged by the internal mailing system as his supervisor was on vacation. The report was sent to the Ministry of Justice, where it was read by a senior employee who was inclined to follow up.

Over the next six months (December, 1979; January-May, 1980) the investigation widened to include, most notably, the Dai-Ichi Kangyo Bank, Limited as well as a number of smaller banks. They were discovered to be holding roughly 10% of outstanding loans as non-preforming loans (NPL) or "bad debt" without holding reserves to counter them. At the time this was not against Japanese law.

The NPLs was in service to the rapidly increasing demands placed on them by their associated corporations (keiretsu) who were entering the global market in force, placing greater pressure both on their finances and their need for capital to counter foreign takeovers.

Despite having uncovered nothing technically illegal the investigation continued because the size of the NPL's was unprecedented. In May a confidential memorandum was found (deliberately misfiled) that outlined a pattern of collusion between the banks and the Ministry of Finance to conceal the NPLs. Using this as a wedge additional corroborating data was soon found, and the scandal entered the public's conscious.

The investigation had been little noticed by reporters and news agencies up until then but the Ministry of Finance links proved irresistible. Public outrage when the investigation and preliminary findings became public (despite government attempts to control the information) centred on the level of corruption that must have been involved, but a vocal minority were more concerned with how much the banks cared about corporations and assets, rather then the retail market and direct customers as in most other developed countries.

Japanese dissatisfaction with the banks—outside the corruption issue—manifested itself along a distinct inferiority complex: why are Japanese banks unable to be as good as American banks in serving retail customers?

Perhaps if the endemic corruption characterized by the Lockheed Scandal of 1976 had not been so fresh in people's minds the Bank Scandal would have blown over, but uncharacteristic anger at the banks (and their corporate partners) and the Ministry of Finance manifested itself into a situation that was viewed as unacceptable by the Japanese public—flatly refusing to accept the rational for the Ministry's actions.

In the spring of 1981 the ruling Liberal Democrat Party lost a vote of confidence, and the nation went to the polls. This is not the paper to cover elections in detail, but in short the coalition government of all opposition parties combined won the election. The Democratic Parties of Japan, as the unwieldy collection of disparate political parties united only in acting against the government was known, promptly passed a very large banking and financial sector reform law. Equally promptly they then collapsed, bringing the LDP back to power.

The law was broad reaching. The Ministry of Finance was removed from the decision making loop; the banking and corporate sector were brought under a set of transparent accounting standards, subject to random audit with large penalties for failure; and the banks were forced to keep reserves on hand to deal with bad loans.

The net effect of the law was to discourage "bad" loans, those that are known to be non-performance, and to return the Ministry of Finance to a properly neutral regulatory role.

As for the Non-Preforming Loans that started the scandal, the government bought them and promptly wrote them off—however the government also forced the banking sector into a series of structural reforms above and beyond the newly written laws. This structural reform would cause a shake-up and rethink of the keiretsu system, although the full details are outside the scope of this paper.

In 1981 the Japanese economy slowed noticeably, having fallen to a growth rate of only 3.4%. Although considered strong in isolation, compared against 1980's 4.8% it was merely average.

A major reason for the drop was that corporations had been cut off from easy credit as a result of reforms, and the banks had been divorced from the Eurobond market as it was no longer worthwhile for them.

The government ideal solution was to reduce savings incentives in the short term, to spur consumer demand, and to drop the governmental portion of the economy back to 1970 levels.

Negotiations with several opposition parties finally produced a durable majority for the LDP, and they went ahead with their plans. Therefore, in 1982, the LDP began their neoliberal period. It started with the deeply unpopular expansion of the consumption tax to a 10% rate, which would be used to enable tax reform in income & corporate areas. It continued with the also unpopular post office privatization, which was to reduce saving incentives (e.g. the post office didn't tax your account until beyond 10,000 USD and they allowed anonymous accounts; given that are thousands of post office outlets you need never pay tax on your savings) and spur consumer demand. Post office privatization also satisfied the coalition opposition parties as a major source of corruption money could no longer be used.

(The coalition partners main demand to go along with these economic reform packages centred on widespread political reform, but that is also outside the scope of this paper.)

Economic disruptions from the banking reform and the economic reform packages had also set in, and the ambitious early wave of global Japanese companies were forced to re-entrench, bringing in outside (Western) consulting and concentrating on smaller and more strategic targets then before. The so-called prestige targets of early global Japanese corporations were abandoned.

Positive signs included several times more foreign direct investment in Japanese corporations, although the keiretsu system continued to keep Japanese companies reasonably safe from the kind of hostile takeovers becoming more popular in the United States.

The reduction of credit from banking structural reforms and post office privatization forced Japanese corporations to modify their export heavy strategy and to focus on profitability instead of market share. Combined with keiretsu whose banks who were now much more wary this shifted Japanese corporations into a more cautious posture.

With the overall amount of investment dollars vastly reduced for the next several years corporations were forced to rely on Japanese consumers, leading to rapidly improved retail operations most notably in the banking sector, but also in many other corporate areas.

In 1983 the growth rate was an anemic 2.2% (down .7% from 1982), and the government became increasingly desperate. Using the additional revenue from the increased consumption tax the LDP conducted a radical overhaul of the tax code as well as sharply cutting both income and corporate tax. Furthermore they followed the American deregulatory lead (although in a rather different fashion) in most markets.

This was the third major shock to the banking sector in only three years. From vast reforms, to the entry of the post office as a private corporation, and now to so-called "smart" deregulation combined with tax cuts.

Nevertheless the banking industry was adaptable and had low debt (as their their NPLs had been paid for by the government), and supported by strong consumer demand in the last quarter of 1983 they embraced reform—forcing reluctant corporations along with them—and began increasing their exposure in the lending market (while continuing to follow the new rules requiring them to be prepared to cover bad debts, this required Japanese banks to keep deeply focused on profitably).

However the yen was rapidly strengthening as well, due to a combination of an improving economy at home and various overseas factors. The Bank of Japan originally considered drastically easing the monetary supply by lowering interest rates, and flooding the country with cheap credit[1]. However the lingering reminders of the Bank Scandal's easy credit and non-preforming loans tainted that option. The Bank of Japan instead embarked on a Print Yen policy, adopting a controlled inflationary target of 1% for the next 10 years.

The consequent drop in the Yen improved the export situation combined with newly available investment dollars was a major boon to Japanese corporations and they used their solidified home base and increased profits to once again enter the international market in force.

With an increased desire to use their savings (due to the newly introduced inflation eating away at them) 1984 was a record year for small businesses. This coincided with the return of investment dollars to the Japanese economy as the economic outlook brightened, and so existing but expanding small businesses and new start-ups could count on higher amounts of bank money than before. The so-called 1984 Businesses

With a weakened yen, strong consumer demand, newly expansive corporations, and a Japanese corporate sector that now cared about the Home Islands more than before 1984 saw an astounding 5.6% growth rate.

(1985, 5.2%; 1986, 5.8%; 1987, 6.0%; 1988, 4.9%; 1989, 4.4%; 1990, 4.6%.[2])

With their fortunes now secure electorally the LDP continued the pace of reforms, concentrating on free trade, the elimination of agricultural subsidies, and overall economic productivity (notably government R&D spending grew several hundred percent in 1985).

The late 1980s has been equally good to Japan, but of course is attributable to the Bank Scandal only indirectly (though a direct path can be traced, the amount of data and economic modelling required to establish solid empirical connections is prohibitive).

In short the reforms that began because of scandal have led to a much healthier Japan. The corporate and bank sector underwent much needed reforms, whose urgency had been masked by high economic growth. The subsequent economic problems caused by the required restructuring created a new government culture willing to embrace reform, which led to far reaching changes in the economic, political, and social spheres.






[1] This was the OTL response to a strengthening yen. The cheap credit resulted in over-borrowing, which led to out of control stock & land prices, and when the Bank of Japan decided to dampen inflation starting in May 1989 they went too far in squeezing speculation out of the stock & land market, and triggered the Bubble collapse in April of 1990.

[2] Also, to sum up: 1980, 4.8%; 1981, 3.4%; 1982, 2.9%; 1983 2.2%. That's an average growth rate of 4.53% from 1980 to 1990.

IOTL Japan had a growth rate of 5.1% in 1976-1980 & 3.3% from 1983 to 1986 & about 5% in the late 1980s. Something like 4% overall for the decade. The ATL Japan has beaten or matched that, and will continue to grow in the 1990s.
 
Well even OTL China won't pass the US for fifty years or so in total GDP if the US can keep something like a 3% growth rate—and that's with more than three times the population, which would still leave the US with three times the per capita GDP.

I disagree, in terms of total GDP size, China can pass the U.S in 50 years in OTL if things go well.

Here's the estimates of goldman sachs. Goldman Sachs is considered the best hedge fund and is staffed by well-paid and elite ivy leaguers.

Go to pg. 8.
http://www2.goldmansachs.com/hkchina/insight/research/pdf/BRICs_3_12-1-05.pdf

While I and the paper agrees with you in terms of per capita(goldman sachs, 9), I disagree in terms of overall GDP.

Avoiding Lost Decades: Teaser #2

New York Times
Archival Stories Search (Terms: China UK "Hong Kong") (Limits: "Major Stories Only Include Medium Business Stories" "November1983–February1984")


UK Rejects China's Hong Kong Offer. A7. November 17, 1982.

Hong Kong Property Market Down 10%. B1. November 18, 1983.

China Issue Referendum Held In Hong Kong. A9. May 2, 1983.

Hong Kong Favors British Control. A8. May 3, 1983.

Sino-British Negotiations On Hong Kong Resume. A12. August 29, 1983.

Westminster: Full Confidence In Hong Kong Negotiations. A14. October 2, 1983.

Handover Off The Table Declares British Parliament. A17. October 27, 1983.

China: New Territories Dispute Drags In Portugal's Macao. A19. January 21, 1984.

UK Nationalizes Hong Kong! A1. February 1, 1984.

China's Denouncement: "British Move Rash & Destabilizing". A1. February 1, 1984.

UK Officially Refuses To Hand Over The New Territories. A7. February 1, 1984.

Citizens Of Hong Kong Now British Subjects. A7. February 1, 1984.

Hong Kong Dollar Replaced By British Sterling In Three Years. B2. February 1, 1984.

Hong Kong Stock Market Suspends Trading. B2. February 1, 1984.

Jardine Matheson Expresses Confidence, Announces New Construction. B2. February 1, 1984.

Japanese Investment Group Makes Major Hong Kong Property Buy. B4. February 2, 1984.

Hong Kong Market Reopens, Rallies. B1. February 6, 1984.

China Compromises On Hong Kong Problem. A2. February 24, 1984

You really don't understand chinese politics of that time, Deng Xioaping would have no problem taking Hong Kong militarily if the british refused.
 
While I and the paper agrees with you in terms of per capita, I disagree in terms of overall GDP.

Ok, thanks for the paper. Still not a big deal one way or the other since whether or not China passes the US in GDP in 50 years was pretty darn tangential.

You really don't understand chinese politics, Deng Xioaping would have no problem taking Hong Kong militarily if the british refused.

And if he takes it militarily he destroys it economically and there goes any assurances Western companies would have about his pet Special Economic Zones

Anyway, if you want to offer a way for the UK to keep Hong Kong feel free.

Deng Xiaoping knew that, but IIRC he already issued military orders anyway in case talks broke down. This is one of the important reasons why I find your scanrio hard to believe with a prosperous China.

We're four years from the POD. Butterflies make the man a little more sensible (pick something, lots of stuff can happen in four years) and the British more obstinate (a couple reasons that will be covered) and he settles for exhorting money instead.

If possible could you give me the PPP estimates of 2018 or 2008 of TTL so I can see if you made something reasonable, or something that contradicts what you said.

My PPP numbers contradict what? My average person is better assertion?

Off-hand in 2008 the US is marginally higher, Europe is noticeably higher, Russia is a lot higher, SEAsia is higher (no crash in 1997/8), Japan is a lot higher (a decade and a half of positive growth instead of flat growth), China is hard to take higher given their OTL performance, but should be a little better given stronger markets to sell into, I'm not sure about India, Latin American & Africa are quite a bit higher.
 
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If possible could you give me the PPP estimates of 2018 or 2008 of TTL so I can see if you made something reasonable, or something that contradicts what you said.
 
Bishop,

Even if China does worse in TTL, huge numbers of Africans and Latin Americans who can't sell their crops abroad b/c of Western farm subsidies will be better off, so the two might balance out.

China is not the only country in the world, even if it does have the largest population.

Very well, then how many latin american farmers are benefited, how many africans?

Let's think, there are approximately, 500 million latin americans and 800 million Africans. That equals to around 1.3 billion people(approximately the number of chinese that had a better life, not counting the ones helped through foreign trade). While there certainly are many farmers, they aren't all farmers, and how much land in Africa is agrable, most certainly not enough for everyone.
 
And if he takes it militarily he destroys it economically and there goes any assurances Western companies would have about his pet Special Economic Zones

Anyway, if you want to offer a way for the UK to keep Hong Kong feel free.

Deng Xiaoping knew that, but IIRC he already issued military orders anyway in case talks broke down. This is one of the important reasons why I find your scanrio hard to believe with a prosperous China.
 
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