Autumn in America: A TL-191 Continuation

Are you seriously implying that the Morgenthau Plan would have been an "ideal outcome"???

Also, HOW did Nazi Germany "win the peace"? Modern Germany is so anti-Nazi it's not even funny, and association with Nazi symbols and ideology is such an instant death sentence for the political fortunes of anyone in the former Allied majors that all but the most crazy fringe far-right groups go to comical lengths to distance themselves from the Nazis in public. Everything to do with the Nazis is so toxic that baselessly calling political opponents Nazis is a common political slur across the Western political spectrum.

You're probably better off letting these guys stew in the weird pro-Confederate, pro-Nazi toxicity TBH. Very creepy all around?
 
You're probably better off letting these guys stew in the weird pro-Confederate, pro-Nazi toxicity TBH. Very creepy all around?
It isn't that? I just don't get how someone could seriously argue that Nazi Germany won the peace.

Edit to clarify: I don't get where you're getting pro-Nazi anything.
 
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Well. Ask some Germans from after they got guided tours of the death camps how they feel about Dear Leader now that they know what they did.

And it's not like the USA is necessarily going to let Confederates vote. Blacks and American colonists? Yeah. White Confederates? If they pass loyalty tests and swear loyalty oaths, maybe in small numbers.
So what we are talking about there is an extremely harsh policy thats intended to fully integrate the CSA as opposed to an extremely lenient one thats intended to do the same thing-as we had OTL.Its safe to say that looking at history since 1865 and the news on a daily basis the lenient policy did not totally work in a situation where the USA and CSA were separated for only 4 years and fought 1 one war so why should we think a harsh reunification policy where they were separated for 83 years and fought 4 wars would work like a charm? The only thing that both seem likely to do is to change the USA and not in a positive way...
 
So what we are talking about there is an extremely harsh policy thats intended to fully integrate the CSA as opposed to an extremely lenient one thats intended to do the same thing-as we had OTL.Its safe to say that looking at history since 1865 and the news on a daily basis the lenient policy did not totally work in a situation where the USA and CSA were separated for only 4 years and fought 1 one war so why should we think a harsh reunification policy where they were separated for 83 years and fought 4 wars would work like a charm? The only thing that both seem likely to do is to change the USA and not in a positive way...
It's not about integrating the Confederacy. It's about integrating the land.

The US has done this PLENTY of times before, to cultures that were NEVER part of the US. It worked just fine. Well, if your definition of "fine" includes the mass ethnic cleansing of literally hundreds of cultures, but you know, it's not like Americans objected to that enough to stop doing it until it was effectively all over.
 
You're probably better off letting these guys stew in the weird pro-Confederate, pro-Nazi toxicity TBH. Very creepy all around?
Yeah, but that's not being pro-Nazi, it's just dramatically detached from reality.
So understanding that there are still pro Nazi and pro Confederate impulses in Western and American society is being pro Nazi and pro Confederate or detached from reality ?Strange I thought it just means that you understand what was done to oppose the 2 from the beginning and then what was done afterwards to stamp them out has been less than perfect and successful.Part of what was done to stamp out Nazism that was successful was made possible by splitting Germany in 2 for 50 years after WW2. Imagine how much less of an impact that denazification would have had if Germany was allowed to remain whole after WW2. Splitting it up was a key element of the Morgenthau Plan and although it was split into less parts that aspect of it worked pretty well.
The part where really only the top echelons of the Nazi government was held to account and much of the German society of the WW2 generation was allowed to say -we didnt know or we were only following orders because their good will and cooperation was needed in either side of the the Cold War was a failure.Just as it was and would be to reintegrate a slave owning/genocide committing Confederate population back into the US not even 50 years later and with either next to no accountability meted out or done in such a way that the Confederates become even more bitter and resistant to change.Why cant it be possible to change them by keeping them at an arms length ? Rehabilitation for most with accountability for most ?
 
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It's not about integrating the Confederacy. It's about integrating the land.

The US has done this PLENTY of times before, to cultures that were NEVER part of the US. It worked just fine. Well, if your definition of "fine" includes the mass ethnic cleansing of literally hundreds of cultures, but you know, it's not like Americans objected to that enough to stop doing it until it was effectively all over.
Well the difference is that with the former Confederates these are white people we are talking about and as much as the average American might look down on them and hate them there still isnt much evidence that they are willing to treat them the same as the Native Americans.Sure they did so with the Mormons but thats mainly because there are a lot less of them and there was spare land to relocate them to.Where would all those white Confederates be relocated to since there is NO intention of committing genocide against them ?
 
So understanding that there are still pro Nazi and pro Confederate impulses in Western and American society is being pro Nazi and pro Confederate or detached from reality ?
That there are some fringe nuts who like to put on costumes and cosplay as SS goons because they're too cowardly and pathetic to actually go out and kill the many, many people they hate does not in any way mean that the Nazis "won the peace". Nazi ideology has been discredited, the people who were #1 on their kill list are considered a protected class across the Western world, and "Nazi" is considered a potent insult connoting unspeakable evil across the political spectrum.

To be unaware of this or deny that this is the case is patently absurd.
Part of what was done to stamp out Nazism that was successful was made possible by splitting Germany in 2 for 50 years after WW2. Imagine how much less of an impact that denazification would have had if Germany was allowed to remain whole after WW2. Splitting it up was a key element of the Morgenthau Plan and although it was split into less parts that aspect of it worked pretty well.
This is patently absurd. The Morgenthau plan was a genocidal fantasy cooked up by a depressed minor official and was never anywhere close to being official policy. Splitting Germany achieved absolutely NOTHING in the way of denazification and in face Nazi apologia is somewhat more common in the former GDR because the Soviets' methods of discrediting the Nazis were less effective and mostly consisted of glorifying their own favored form of totalitarian dickishness.
Well the difference is that with the former Confederates these are white people we are talking about and as much as the average American might look down on them and hate them there still isnt much evidence that they are willing to treat them the same as the Native Americans.Sure they did so with the Mormons but thats mainly because they are a lot less of them.Where would all those white Confederates be relocated to since there is NO intention of committing genocide against them ?
Shove them into the nastiest stretches of swamp and most useless land in the South. It's not like they'll be able to do much to fight whatever the US plans to do because the first thing any sane US would do is remove all military industry and firearms from the former Confederacy.
 
That there are some fringe nuts who like to put on costumes and cosplay as SS goons because they're too cowardly and pathetic to actually go out and kill the many, many people they hate does not in any way mean that the Nazis "won the peace". Nazi ideology has been discredited, the people who were #1 on their kill list are considered a protected class across the Western world, and "Nazi" is considered a potent insult connoting unspeakable evil across the political spectrum.

To be unaware of this or deny that this is the case is patently absurd.

This is patently absurd. The Morgenthau plan was a genocidal fantasy cooked up by a depressed minor official and was never anywhere close to being official policy. Splitting Germany achieved absolutely NOTHING in the way of denazification and in face Nazi apologia is somewhat more common in the former GDR because the Soviets' methods of discrediting the Nazis were less effective and mostly consisted of glorifying their own favored form of totalitarian dickishness.

Shove them into the nastiest stretches of swamp and most useless land in the South. It's not like they'll be able to do much to fight whatever the US plans to do because the first thing any sane US would do is remove all military industry and firearms from the former Confederacy.
And despite that just under the surface in the US for example there is a sizable subset of a major American political party that despises those protected classes and would do much worse to them if they could. They apparently have enough numbers and influence that the former president of that party was unwilling to ever really put them at arms length at the risk of losing their votes. Nazism can never be too discredited and its dangerous to be unaware of just how present it still is in the Western world.
In his Hot War series HT shows Germany essentially having to reunite to fight the Soviets in the wake of an early WW3 in the 1950s and he makes it clear how widespread the belief was still there that the Nazis were right about the Soviets and the Americans-how doesnt that happen in a Germany thats not even split after WW2?
You correctly say that the Morgenthau Plan had a genocidal element to it but a few sentences later you seem to endorse having the TL191 US shove former Confederates into nasty swamps and useless land in the South? So that wouldnt have something of a genocidal effect like the Morgenthau Plan ?
 
And despite that just under the surface in the US for example there is a sizable subset of a major American political party that despises those protected classes and would do much worse to them if they could. They apparently have enough numbers and influence that the former president of that party was unwilling to ever really put them at arms length at the risk of losing their votes. Nazism can never be too discredited and its dangerous to be unaware of just how present it still is in the Western world.
In his Hot War series HT shows Germany essentially having to reunite to fight the Soviets in the wake of an early WW3 in the 1950s and he makes it clear how widespread the belief was still there that the Nazis were right about the Soviets and the Americans-how doesnt that happen in a Germany thats not even split after WW2?
You correctly say that the Morgenthau Plan had a genocidal element to it but a few sentences later you seem to endorse having the TL191 US shove former Confederates into nasty swamps and useless land in the South? So that wouldnt have something of a genocidal effect like the Morgenthau Plan ?
I'm endorsing nothing. I'm saying that the US of TL-191's 1945 is perfectly willing to commit ethnic cleansing and has done so numerous times in the past.

As for the rest of your post--none of what you are saying refutes my point, and more importantly, you are still clinging to the bizarre idea, which honestly I have never heard before, that the division of Germany was somehow necessary for denazification and not just a political reality that became permanent in the aftermath of WW2.
 
I'm endorsing nothing. I'm saying that the US of TL-191's 1945 is perfectly willing to commit ethnic cleansing and has done so numerous times in the past.

As for the rest of your post--none of what you are saying refutes my point, and more importantly, you are still clinging to the bizarre idea, which honestly I have never heard before, that the division of Germany was somehow necessary for denazification and not just a political reality that became permanent in the aftermath of WW2.
The TL-191 US is willing to commit ethnic cleansing with a white population if its small enough to move without causing a massive body count and there is a decent place to move them to but if it involves genocide or a relocation to an area that is unsuitable to human existence and kills off lots of people as a consequence its not willing to do that.
I understand perfectly well why the division of Germany was necessary because of the politics of the Cold War.I also think that division played a role in the deNazification being mostly effective partially because it was a consequence of the Nazi defeat .For most surviving Germans it was one of the few tangible effects of the Nazi defeat they saw in their every day lives. If Germany had remained whole without lots of American or Soviet influence that would not have happened as effectively and perhaps not at all.
 
The TL-191 US is willing to commit ethnic cleansing with a white population if its small enough to move without causing a massive body count and there is a decent place to move them to but if it involves genocide or a relocation to an area that is unsuitable to human existence and kills off lots of people as a consequence its not willing to do that.
Evidence? And ethnic cleansing through forced migration ALWAYS involves a body count.

The US spent the first century and a half or so of its existence being perfectly willing to ethnically cleanse tens to hundreds of thousands of people for its own benefit. The Confederates being white is irrelevant, as they are a cultural and social minority that is considered an untrustworthy, untrustable, insidious enemy bent on the destruction of the US and Americans, based on the warmongering actions of the Featherston regime in response to an unprecedented, unparalleled, and incredible degree of US mercy in the first Great War.
I understand perfectly well why the division of Germany was necessary because of the politics of the Cold War.I also think that division played a role in the deNazification being mostly effective partially because it was a consequence of the Nazi defeat .For most surviving Germans it was one of the few tangible effects of the Nazi defeat they saw in their every day lives. If Germany had remained whole without lots of American or Soviet influence that would not have happened as effectively and perhaps not at all.
I can't think how you could possibly think that the division of Germany helped people oppose the Nazis. If anything, it contributed to further pro-Nazi sentiment, especially considering how the idea of enemy powers wanting to divide Germany and leave it weak and powerless was a key element of Nazi propaganda from quite early on.
 
One thing is obvious from the books is that no one in the Confederacy is horrified by the mass extermination the same way the Germans would. The books all show most southerners being happy that quote "someone had finally solved the n***** problem". The chief of staff Forest guy and Jerry Dover both didn't have any moral issues with it they just believed that war resources could be used for something more useful than killing black people. It's very likely that once the US emerges people are going to emerge supporting the extremist views about black people if any still live in the former Confederacy. Regardless of how the breakup goes, the US has to keep a close eye on the Confederacy since these people cannot be trusted.
 
One thing is obvious from the books is that no one in the Confederacy is horrified by the mass extermination the same way the Germans would. The books all show most southerners being happy that quote "someone had finally solved the n***** problem". The chief of staff Forest guy and Jerry Dover both didn't have any moral issues with it they just believed that war resources could be used for something more useful than killing black people. It's very likely that once the US emerges people are going to emerge supporting the extremist views about black people if any still live in the former Confederacy. Regardless of how the breakup goes, the US has to keep a close eye on the Confederacy since these people cannot be trusted.
I don’t think the idea that no Confederate whites would be horrified by the ongoing genocide would be universal tbh. With Louisiana being devastated by the Freedom Party once Huey Long was disposed of, it might take some time to come to the realization but I think it would be seen there was one of many things to blame Featherston for. Also you have very large pro-Union and anti-Freedomite populations in Kentucky, Tennessee, and Sequoyah who aren’t going to be thrilled about the Population Reduction. Cuba was shown to actively resist it. Not sure about Chihuahua and Sonora and where they would likely stand. But I agree with you as a whole.
 
One thing is obvious from the books is that no one in the Confederacy is horrified by the mass extermination the same way the Germans would. The books all show most southerners being happy that quote "someone had finally solved the n***** problem". The chief of staff Forest guy and Jerry Dover both didn't have any moral issues with it they just believed that war resources could be used for something more useful than killing black people. It's very likely that once the US emerges people are going to emerge supporting the extremist views about black people if any still live in the former Confederacy. Regardless of how the breakup goes, the US has to keep a close eye on the Confederacy since these people cannot be trusted.
Which is a big part of the point that bringing such people back into the US likely changes the US for the worse,There should be a way to keep such people out of the US and still change them as much as possible,
 
I don’t think the idea that no Confederate whites would be horrified by the ongoing genocide would be universal tbh. With Louisiana being devastated by the Freedom Party once Huey Long was disposed of, it might take some time to come to the realization but I think it would be seen there was one of many things to blame Featherston for. Also you have very large pro-Union and anti-Freedomite populations in Kentucky, Tennessee, and Sequoyah who aren’t going to be thrilled about the Population Reduction. Cuba was shown to actively resist it. Not sure about Chihuahua and Sonora and where they would likely stand. But I agree with you as a whole.
That should be true realistically but we're talking about TL-191 as designed by Turtledove where as @Worrfan101 pointed out had all those realism issues including the US being just slightly less racist than the CSA and not allowing black people not even to serve in segregated units as armed soldiers. In the books it's clear that the people of the USA are horrified but most of their viewpoint toward black people was complete apathy or just ignoring them. Sequoyah has been filled with Pro-US settlers so that isn't an issue. As for Kentucky and Tennessee the fact that the referendum brought them back into the CSA shows how much more aligned they were with that nation and Freedomite ideas. As for Chihuahua and Sonora, from my last reading the Confederate-Mexican population is glad since they get jobs and also they feel a sense of superiority as well.
 
The point is that the Destruction went over much better in the CSA than it did in the USA.So how does reintegrating the CSA into the USA make the CSA better and not make the USA worse ?
 
I don’t think the idea that no Confederate whites would be horrified by the ongoing genocide would be universal tbh.
I agree.

For one thing, Gabriel Semmes was able to get a bill passed giving black veterans full citizenship - it was before the Red Rebellion, but it does indicate that there are at least a few CSA members who can accept the idea of giving black people weapons or the vote.

For another, the Confederate Socialist Party, and to a lesser extent the Radical Liberal Party, supported racial equality. A lot of them ended up imprisoned in concentration camps.
 
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