Autonomous Region of China

What do you think?

  • It's a plausible scenario

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • It's a possible scenario and likely

    Votes: 3 5.8%
  • It's a possible scenario but unlikely

    Votes: 13 25.0%
  • It's an impossible scenario

    Votes: 34 65.4%

  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .
This is my first post here so let me know what you guys think. I've got plenty more scenarios so if this works out well I might post those too.

My thinking is that if instead of calling him back, the Chinese government allowed Zheng He and his compatriots to continue their exploration of the East, eventually reaching the West Coast of North America.

My thinking: The Chinese establish an autonomous region from Alaska to Baja California, east to the Rocky Mountains and the Sierra Nevada. The Chinese, while allowing autonomy to the Native Americans, still maintain a heavy influence in the region, thus being able to keep the Spanish out and eventually allowing the US to lease the territory in 1849 following the discovery of gold at Sutter's Mill for 150 years, the lease thus ending in 1999. The territory, despite protest from the locals and the conservative population of the country, is turned back over to China in 1999, becoming a semi-autonomous region, similar to Hong Kong and Macau.
 
Chinese establishment in the Americas would butterfly the USA, as well as Spanish colonization. There probably would be European arrival, but it would go down differently due to the butterflies involved.
 
And HOW EXACTLY would the Chinese maintain enough influence through all of there with the difficulties of sending people there?
 
China have not any reason or willing to go colonise far east. It has all ready enough own territories and resources. And sea travel over Pacific would be long and dangerous. They even couldn't be sure if they reach Americas. And it would bee very expensive and difficult rule distant colony.

And even if China on some reason and somehow colonise America and keep that, United States would butterfly away.
 
Zheng He was always a general and never an explorer. His goal was to establish hegemony in seas already known to the Chinese.

That means he's not going east. Ever.
 
Is it even possible for Zheng He to get there?Another thing is that if colonies were established,what is likely to happen is that the Ming Imperial dynasty will flee there when their rule over China collapses or the authorities there simply secede when the Ming dynasty falls.It is highly likely that the Ming dynasty will fall due to some sort of Little Ice Age as a result of depopulation of the Americas due to newly brought disease.
 
Why would the discovery of gold prompt the Chinese to lease their territory to the United States to exploit it instead of them? That's ignoring all of the other unfeasible parts of this idea - That the United States would still exist in this scenario is the most problematic.
 
Crossing the Pacific is extremely difficult compared to the Atlantic - not only is the ocean larger, but you'd be going against the trade winds.

It's technologically possible for China to explore the Americas, but the PoDs to make them interested would be so far back that butterflies might well change their ability.
 
Reply to the arguements

1- Many people are saying that the Chinese would've never reached the West Coast. While many people do believe that's a fact, there is emerging evidence that the Chinese DID, in fact, reach San Francisco in the 13th Century. While it is disputed, it's not impossible.

2- Some people argue that the Chinese had no reason to expand eastward. While eastward exploration wouldn't seem feasible, as I stated in the previous response, they actually did.

3- Some people argue that controlling territory so far away would have been extremely difficult. We must remember, however, that the Chinese were not only more technologically advanced than we give them credit, but discovery of this new territory would prompt migration to the new territories, and people in the new territory would feel respect and honor and wish to be part of the old Chinese world. While that's not a fact, it does sound reasonable. The Chinese are very respectable and honorable, so I can reason they wouldn't have a large-scale rebellion from the mainland.

4- It has been argued that the Chinese would never lease the west coast to the US or any other nation thanks to the discovery of gold. The Chinese, however, in the mainland, already had major material deposits in Manchuria, and they didn't value gold as highly as we do. In fact, Chinese traders valued opium at a higher price than gold. The US wanted the gold in California, and the Chinese would probably be able to get copious amounts of opium that the US could grow, which, I know, was not a major export of the US, but economies can change rapidly with new necessity or dependability (just look at the South's transition from tobacco to cotton following the invention of the cotton gin). The Chinese would, also, realize that the gold would eventually run out, so they'd be willing to lease it. They'd also know that the gold would have some value, so maybe for every few hundred pounds of gold discovered the US would have to give a few extra dollars.

5- It was argued that the US would flat out not exist if the Chinese had a sphere of influence in North America. While it would not exist as it does today, it would still exist. Small winged insects would have their effect, but I don't believe even their colorful wings could stop the US.
 
1- Many people are saying that the Chinese would've never reached the West Coast. While many people do believe that's a fact, there is emerging evidence that the Chinese DID, in fact, reach San Francisco in the 13th Century. While it is disputed, it's not impossible.

I would like to see this evidence. And don't quote Gavin Menzies please, the man is a fraud.

2- Some people argue that the Chinese had no reason to expand eastward. While eastward exploration wouldn't seem feasible, as I stated in the previous response, they actually did.

You say "while it is disputed, its not impossible." Then you treat it like fact here. Can you please point to the evidence.

3- Some people argue that controlling territory so far away would have been extremely difficult. We must remember, however, that the Chinese were not only more technologically advanced than we give them credit, but discovery of this new territory would prompt migration to the new territories, and people in the new territory would feel respect and honor and wish to be part of the old Chinese world. While that's not a fact, it does sound reasonable. The Chinese are very respectable and honorable, so I can reason they wouldn't have a large-scale rebellion from the mainland.

You mean, China has never had a rebellion before... because they are so full of respect and honour? I mean, there is a whole article on Wikipedia called: List of rebellions in China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_China
There were a lot.


4- It has been argued that the Chinese would never lease the west coast to the US or any other nation thanks to the discovery of gold. The Chinese, however, in the mainland, already had major material deposits in Manchuria, and they didn't value gold as highly as we do. In fact, Chinese traders valued opium at a higher price than gold. The US wanted the gold in California, and the Chinese would probably be able to get copious amounts of opium that the US could grow, which, I know, was not a major export of the US, but economies can change rapidly with new necessity or dependability (just look at the South's transition from tobacco to cotton following the invention of the cotton gin). The Chinese would, also, realize that the gold would eventually run out, so they'd be willing to lease it. They'd also know that the gold would have some value, so maybe for every few hundred pounds of gold discovered the US would have to give a few extra dollars.

With such a different world, why would the USA exist. And if USA is taking control and flooding it with settlers, they would make the lease permanent. And by that I mean, like Britain with Hong Kong, they would just make China cede its North American holdings in perpetuity.

5- It was argued that the US would flat out not exist if the Chinese had a sphere of influence in North America. While it would not exist as it does today, it would still exist. Small winged insects would have their effect, but I don't believe even their colorful wings could stop the US.

Wait, the USA is inevitable? I mean, your POD is before England started settling the East Coast. Other countries had colonies there too. England had a string of partly good luck in its history.

What I am curious to know is how the USA is inevitable?

My response is bolded above.

In total, I have a few questions: What is your evidence for China arriving in the Americas?

Why is the USA inevitable? And why wouldn't they just conquer the area, or force the Chinese to change the cession to perpetuity?
 
While some kind of ATL Chinese colonization of the New World can be plausible if very unlikely, the scenario posited in the opening post is unfortunately nigh impossible.
 
I'm curious as to whether or not the OP's alt-USA is anything like the USA we all know and love that declared Manifest Destiny and acquired most of its western territories through force by going to war with Mexico.
 
100% impossible.

1- Many people are saying that the Chinese would've never reached the West Coast. While many people do believe that's a fact, there is emerging evidence that the Chinese DID, in fact, reach San Francisco in the 13th Century. While it is disputed, it's not impossible.

2- Some people argue that the Chinese had no reason to expand eastward. While eastward exploration wouldn't seem feasible, as I stated in the previous response, they actually did.

3- Some people argue that controlling territory so far away would have been extremely difficult. We must remember, however, that the Chinese were not only more technologically advanced than we give them credit, but discovery of this new territory would prompt migration to the new territories, and people in the new territory would feel respect and honor and wish to be part of the old Chinese world. While that's not a fact, it does sound reasonable. The Chinese are very respectable and honorable, so I can reason they wouldn't have a large-scale rebellion from the mainland.

4- It has been argued that the Chinese would never lease the west coast to the US or any other nation thanks to the discovery of gold. The Chinese, however, in the mainland, already had major material deposits in Manchuria, and they didn't value gold as highly as we do. In fact, Chinese traders valued opium at a higher price than gold. The US wanted the gold in California, and the Chinese would probably be able to get copious amounts of opium that the US could grow, which, I know, was not a major export of the US, but economies can change rapidly with new necessity or dependability (just look at the South's transition from tobacco to cotton following the invention of the cotton gin). The Chinese would, also, realize that the gold would eventually run out, so they'd be willing to lease it. They'd also know that the gold would have some value, so maybe for every few hundred pounds of gold discovered the US would have to give a few extra dollars.

5- It was argued that the US would flat out not exist if the Chinese had a sphere of influence in North America. While it would not exist as it does today, it would still exist. Small winged insects would have their effect, but I don't believe even their colorful wings could stop the US.

1. Yes, it almost certainly happened, but I believe it was mostly Japanese fishermen carried by the currents and blown off course and shipwrecked. It was ALWAYS one-way, though, everytime.

2. Even if they made it home (how?), no one would have any reason to believe them, and even then, why go all across the ocean? All they know is that it's a rugged land of rocks and trees inhabited by probably violent primitives. Kinda like Siberia, which is much closer to home.

3. They still have the same technology of the world in that era, meaning logistics will still utterly kill you. Not to mention, they'd be blending with the natives there, and would be so far out of contact from the rest of China that they'd pay only nominal tribute. They'd have their own identity after a while. This goes infinitely more if the majority of settlers are Hakka or Cantonese, which odds are, they probably are (looking at historic Chinese immigration to the US and Southeast Asia), so now you have linguistic issues that combined with the emerging new ethnic group. They would also would probably have an easier time rebelling than Spanish America or the US did.

4. Chinese demand for precious metal was so high that at one point most silver of Peru went straight to China. They certainly valued it quite much, and would absolutely love for a gold mine like California to be theirs. In fact, the gold in California would probably be mostly gone by the 18th century assuming China colonises in the 15th century.

Incidentally, California was once a leading producer of opium in the US, so if they wanted opium, they could grow it there and not import random American opium.

And no utter way would a country just lease a territory that big, which has TONS of resources besides gold, and contains probably at that point millions of people. That would be instant cause for a rebellion by those people, which they'd stand a strong chance at winning.

5. Not necessarily. It could be two, three, four, even more countries, all competing with each other with no need to mess with some big Chinese state on the West Coast. There could be a country like French Louisiana in the way of an East Coast state. There could be anything.

And even if it is the US, it would have a ridiculously hard campaign ahead of them if they want to conquer this Chinese state. In fact, logistics would probably make it impossible to conquer before the late 19th century, since your supplies would need to either go around Cape Horn, down to Panama and across jungle (building the Panama Canal before late 19th century is very hard) and up through another ocean, or across the Great Plains with probably hostile Indians. Therefore, you have such a massive disadvantage no one would even bother unless you have a fascist dictator who is utterly obsessed with Manifest Destiny, who would definitely still lose.
 
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Ignoring butterflies, why would the U.S. give away land on the North American that it has controlled for a century and a half to China?

The U.S. is not the U.K. of 1997.

This is not a city.

There would be thousands if not millions of American citizens living there, not a city full of "subjects."

Those same American citizens would have democratic state and/or territorial governments, not an appointed colonial government.

China cannot simply drive in. The U.S. Army can simply drive in.

China cannot threaten the U.S. and would gain nothing by starting a war over North American land claims.

And the U.S. probably would have annexed it outright and be in a position to ignore Chinese revanchism (ignoring butterflies) anyway at any of multiple dates. (1899 seems reasonable--weakened China, imperialist U.S.)

Even if the beyond impossible POD worked itself out, and the beyond impossible Great Butterfly Net (courtesy of Ghoti the Alien Space Bat) kept things recognizable, it is Beyond the Impossible Up to Eleven that China would get to keep land next to the U.S.
 
Chinese in North America are unlikely simply because they have land and resources closer to home in Manchuria and whatnot. The idea of them establishing an autonomous region is possible, there were Chinese settlements all over SE Asia and the islands, but not in North America. That would be like the Americans invading Brazil instead of Mexico in the 1830s.
 
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