Automotive WI: Toyota without Lexus, PSA Peugeot-Citroen merges with the Corolla maker by gaining benefit from the French marque's underpinnings

[ialociN_Nicolai_11x2_1995]

I am not an American or Canadian here, but here is a thread I would post it for anybody.
So, there are some ideas why, as something of a prologue:

• Both Toyota, Peugeot, and Citroen are deeply notable in the Euro-centric World Rally Championship (WRC) for its performances, with both Toyota and Peugeot scoring four, and Citroen scoring nine consecutive WRC manufacturer's titles. But not to mention both car manufacturers deeply excel in making cars for rough conditions, as for an example, demonstrated by Citroen with the hydropneumatic suspension.
• Both Toyota and Peugeot started their businesses' lives as non-automotive brands, hence Toyota started from making looms while Peugeot started from making non-car and culinary-centric things such as coffee and pepper grinders, etc.
• Both Toyota and Citroen had their first cars' nameplates possessing and starting with the letter "A", as naming ideas that time were limited, such as the [Toyota] AA and [Citroen] Type A.
• Both car manufacturers kept such names in their libraries such as "TRD", "GR", "Solara", "Sceptre" - though Toyota used the latter nameplate but instead spelled as "Scepter" due to the Japanese's know-how of using English because of the impact coming from American expatriates -, etc.
• And many more to say...

Somewhere in 1981, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus#History, Toyota chairman Eiji Toyoda issued a challenge to build the world's best car with the project being codenamed as Flagship-One (F1), which later resulted to the birth of the Lexus LS 400 as part of expanding Toyota's product line in the premium segment.

But as for Peugeot, they decided to leave the USA and Canada with the [Peugeot] 505 as its last model, while at the same time, they [PSA] lost money after killing off the Talbot marque.

And in turn, Toyota called out PSA Peugeot-Citroen - instead of [Grim Reaper] General Motors (GM) - to form a joint venture with each other, which even led Toyota to establish a foothold for itself in the European market than benefiting [Toyota] from GM's hopes on conquering America and Canada with the use of the latter's factory located in California, this even meant Toyota benefited from access to one of Peugeot's properties - the Ryton assembly plant, instead of the one located in Derbyshire, that manufactured vehicles from Chrysler's European division, which was merged with Peugeot until it [Chrysler Europe] died following the takeover in 1978.

Therefore, the outcome of the JV between Toyota and PSA Peugeot-Citroen was the latter [Toyota] gained benefit from from the platforms, hence underpinnings, that PSA used in its cars. This meant, Toyota refused to scrap the F1 project by reorganising it into a certain Peugeot-sourced platform as a kind of basis for the East Asian [Japanese] car manufacturer's product line.

As a result of that, many Toyota cars - except for Daihatsu and Hino Motors - benefited from Peugeot-sourced underpinnings, but instead, all of the former's [Toyota's] models retained/kept its engineering components, see: Category:Toyota engines, running on the inside. This meant for Toyota to scrap its own underpinnings in favour of those [platforms] coming from Peugeot's cars.

For examples, the front-engine, front-wheel drive Peugeot 305 was used as a foundation for the [Toyota] Corolla and the front-engine, rear-wheel drive 505 was used as a basis for the [Toyota] Supra.

So, instead of keeping the [Toyota] Corona and its [Toyota] Carina sibling in production, especially with both names looking and sounding similar to the name of virus, Toyota decided to delete both models [Carina and Corona] in its lineup, and in turn, the Supra became a five-door [liftback] large family [sports/luxury] car a la Kia Stinger while both Corona and Carina siblings were replaced by the aforementioned Corolla instead - meaning that the Camry would not exist as a result... [Also, Daihatsu and Hino would get bankrupt and thus reorganise its businesses into Toyota instead.]

- Genda Nicolai Yturzaeta Iwakawa/awakawI ateazrutY ialociN adneG, to be continued for more...

 

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Interesting angle.

Personally I think you'd still have Toyota & PSA having two separate vehicle plants similar to what Rover & Honda did in their JV from 1978 to 1994.

or

Have Toyota instead buy the 'Hillman' for the UK & 'Simca' for the rest of Europe names (the Talbot name never really caught on) off PSA and market badge engineered Toyota European models across the continent from their Derbyshire plant from 1992?

 

[ialociN_Nicolai_11x2_1995]

Interesting angle.

Personally I think you'd still have Toyota & PSA having two separate vehicle plants similar to what Rover & Honda did in their JV from 1978 to 1994.

or

Have Toyota instead buy the 'Hillman' for the UK & 'Simca' for the rest of Europe names (the Talbot name never really caught on) off PSA and market badge engineered Toyota European models across the continent from their Derbyshire plant from 1992?

I think the only reason why both Toyota and PSA Peugeot Citroën would have the opportunity to segregate manufacturing facilities for each other might probably be stemmed from the deeply protectionist attitudes of continental European countries like France, where PSA is deeply home to, as stated from one of the lines coming from Wikipedia's articles regarding the deeply infamous and unsuccessful Alfa Romeo Arna and the Nissan Motor Manufacturing UK assembly plant:
===

• "During that period, European countries were engaging in protectionism to guard their domestic car industries, with France even banning the import of Japanese made vehicles. Working with Alfa Romeo, who controlled a respectable amount of European auto sales at the time was seen as a good hedge for Nissan and a chance to establish a foothold in the European market."
• "While British Leyland and Honda had a limited partnership in the United Kingdom at that time, the Nissan and Alfa Romeo alliance was the first of its kind between a European and Japanese automaker with joint investment into manufacturing and development. It was feared by the European Economic Community and ironically, Alfa's future parent Fiat, that the success of this partnership would create a Trojan horse, enabling Japanese automakers to compete "unfairly" in Europe, and thereby take sales away from other European auto-makers." - source: Alfa Romeo Arna - Wikipedia

As for Nissan's manufacturing plant in the British Isles:

• "Nissan had been importing cars from its native country Japan to the UK since 1968, under the Datsun brand (which was phased out between 1982 and 1984, when the Nissan brand took over completely). After a steady start, its market share rose dramatically from just over 6,000 car sales in 1971 to more than 30,000 a year later, and reaching 100,000 a year before the end of the decade, aided by competitive prices, good equipment levels and a reputation for producing reliable cars. The success of Datsun came at a time when the British car industry, particularly British Leyland, was blighted by strikes as well as reports of disappointing build quality and reliability of many of its cars."
• "One of Nissan's more controversial demands during the talks was that the plant be single-union. This was unprecedented in UK industry. In April 1985, an agreement was reached with the Amalgamated Engineering Union (AEU). However, critics argue that this means the plant workforce is weakly represented, as workers are only members of one single union. Nissan argues that as a result of the single-union agreement, its workforce is much more flexible than at other plants, and it points to the fact that not a single minute has been lost to industrial disputesat the factory in more than 30 years of production – a stark contrast to the strikes which hit the likes of British Leyland during the 1970s."
• "In December 1985, McAlpine handed over the completed factory building to Nissan for the installation of machinery and factory components, ahead of schedule. Phase 1 of the plant construction was completed in July 1986, consisting of a body, paint and final assembly line. The first Bluebird was produced shortly after and is on display at the Sunderland Museum and Winter Gardens. Official opening of the plant by then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Nissan President Yutaka Kume took place in September 1986. By February 1987, NMUK had become the sole supplier of the Bluebird model to the UK market, after a brief spell of importing Japanese built models, and work on phase two of the plant began, with plastics moulding and engine assembly beginning in 1988, and was completed in May 1990. This would prove to be a landmark year for the plant, with the introduction of the P10 Primera, the first model to be wholly built at NMUK, replacing the Bluebird and going into production that summer. By 1991, despite the recession, the plant turned its first profit of £18.4 million, and was awarded 'British Manufacturer' status by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT). Around this time, Nissan ended its relationship with Octav Botnar and the Automotive Financial Group (AFG), which had been its UK import concessionaire since 1970, and brought the import and distribution business in-house, basing it at the Sunderland plant. In August 1992, the plant began to produce two models, with the introduction of the highly successful Micra, which was the first car of a Japanese brand to be voted "European Car of the Year. The Micra proved particularly popular with British and continental buyers, and was in production for a whole decade until the launch of the next generation Micra." - source: Nissan Motor Manufacturing UK - Wikipedia

===
So therefore when Toyota made a JV with PSA - instead of General Motors (GM) - in order for the former [Toyota] to have the chance of [Toyota] setting up a foothold in Europe, this meant Toyota preferred Britain as its only production hub aiming directly to the British Isles and European markets, whereas continental Europe is relegated for PSA as a result of the [mainland European] market's protectionist behaviours - as this was already explained from one of the lines regarding Alfa's Arna.

Conscientiously, in addition to those lines mentioned above. I guess if not only Toyota who could be the only one to develop and sell a certain car - hence a cross-breed - that possesses the partnership of underpinnings from Peugeot and technologies/engineering components - hence powetrains - from Toyota, but also both Peugeot and Citroen would even end up doing the same experiment Toyota and not having the former two [Peugeot and Citroen] to rebadge numerous Toyotas for sale in Europe - as this even meant both Toyota and PSA would never ever adopt the kind of idea Alfa Romeo did with the Arna, as its image seen below.
===

- "The Alfa Romeo Arna, the product of a joint venture between Alfa Romeo and Nissan, showed promise in development. However, the finished product was merely a rebadged Nissan Cherry hatchback retrofitted with Alfa components and manufactured in Italy. The combination of the generic styling and poor handling common to Japanese cars of the time with the poor build quality and reliability Alfa was notorious for was seen as combining the worst qualities of both companies. In a 2000 episode of Clarkson's Car Years, Jeremy Clarkson described the Arna as being a "truly horrific cross-breed" and "one of the worst creations in the whole of history"; "It might have worked had they married Japanese build quality with Italian design flair, but they did it the other way around! So what we ended up with was a terribly ugly Nissan Cherry with Alfasud electrics! Can you imagine anything, anything worse?" MSN Autos named it #1 on their list of "Top 10 Disastrous Cars"; "A mix of Italian flair and Japanese expertise should have been made in heaven, but they clearly decided to divide the tasks by means of a lucky dip. Alfa ended up doing the electronics while Nissan took care of the styling, resulting in an ugly car that didn’t work properly." Car magazine ranked the Arna as one of the worst cars of the past 50 years, writing, "Nissan donated its unlovely Cherry body panels while the Italians lent their exceptionally unexceptional electrical and construction expertise. Result: the most ‘bello’ Alfa ever." As of March 2018 only three Arnas are shown to still exist in the United Kingdom, all three of them being SORNs." - source: List of automobiles known for negative reception: Alfa Romeo Arna - Wikipedia
===
That deeply explains why, the Arna was considerably a sign of break for Alfa Romeo and as well as its potential, as this even gave the fact that an idea of a certain European car manufacturer selling a single model that deeply possessed the partnership of underpinnings plus body panels from an [East] Asian marque and technolgical/mechanical components from a European automotive company meant, for example, bad luck- as profoundly opposed to the meaning of the cloverleaf that is marked on performance-spec Alfa Romeo vehicles, which primarily means good luck.

As for the case of Toyota's joint venture with PSA, therefore Chrysler Europe, which contains both Hillman - a remnant of the Rootes Group - and Simca, would have kept itself away from existence. Whereas Talbot on the other hand, would have gone out of business, then the [Talbot] Horizon supermini/small family car would have reorganised its underpinnings plus body panels - but not [its] technical/engineering components - into the [Toyota] Starlet supermini, and thus in the following, the latter model [Starlet] would be renamed as Yaris for several markets overeas - in addition the Starlet nameplate would only be used for the Southeast Asian market, where Toyota is deeply strong in terms of sales, etc...

- Genda Nicolai Yturzaeta Iwakawa/awakawI ateazrutY ialociN adneG, to be continued for more...

 

[ialociN_Nicolai_11x2_1995]

Interesting angle.

I guess if Toyota would have already grown its potentials up circa 1970s, [c.] 1980s, 1990s, or 2000s, then the former [Toyota] would have possess the determination to acquire PSA Peugeot Citroen - unless if all of Honda and its properties would have already merged and reorganised into Toyota's orbit [earlier] in order to perform a takeover of PSA.

At first, if Toyota would refuse itself to establish Lexus and take over Honda instead of the latter to negotiate with dead man walking British Leyland, therefore as having earlier meant that Honda would become dormant as a result of being absorbed by Toyota, this meant the latter [Toyota] would finally have the power to purchase Chrysler Europe (CE) - starting with Toyota gaining benefit from the latter's Ryton-on-Dunsmore (ROD) assembly plant over the underpinnings (plus bodyshells) of front-engine, front-wheel drive (FF) layout Simca vehicles for example.

The second priority meant while Toyota already took over Chrysler's European operations by protecting it (CE) from being swallowed up by PSA, then in turn, Toyota determined to buy the certainly nascent PSA Peugeot-Citroen merger and thus benefited both car manufacturers (Toyota and Peugeot) from the underpinnings (chassis) of Citroen's cars rather than those coming [chassis] from the vehicles of Peugeot - except for the likes of Toyota's sports cars/grand tourers and off-road vehicles such as the [Toyota] Supra and [Toyota] Hilux for examples.

The third priority was both Peugeot and Citroen relied on benefiting their cars from Toyota's engineering technologies, e.g. engines (mainly petrol), automatic transmissions, future powertrains (mainly hybrid technologies), thus the outcome was PSA [Peugeot-Citroen] lost its knowledge of developing diesel motors in favour of relying on Toyota's parts bin - but not chassis plus body panels that could just make both cars looking ugly, mediocre, and hence, bland.

The fourth priorty also meant PSA benefited from Toyota's deeply strong market presence in Southeast Asia, especially with both Peugeot, Citroen, and Toyota (plus Honda until its amalgamation by Toyota) already possessed a joint venture with each other in Indonesia, and thus the name of the JV was Astra International. Subsequently, as with Peugeot already left the North American market meant the former [Peugeot] and Citroen also gained benefit from Toyota to expand the aforementioned European brands' [PSA's] presence in other Southeast Asian markets like, Thailand, Malaysia, and the Philippines - this meant for PSA to prevent itself from establishing a beachhead in China.

And the fifth priority meant these were the following models that contained in the lineups of both Toyota, Peugeot, and Citroen per segment:

• Economy car: Toyota Starlet - Peugeot 104 (revolved into the economy car class) - Citroen 2CV (FF, evolved into being powered with a Toyota-sourced inline-four engine, thus a basis for the said two vehicles)
• Supermini: Toyota Yaris - Peugeot 204 (revolved into the supermini class) - Citroen Ami (FF, evolved into being powered with a Toyota-sourced inline-four engine, thus a basis for the said two vehicles - also a replacement to the Citroen Dyane)
• Small family car: Toyota Corolla (evolved into being a front-engine, front-wheel drive small family car, acted as a replacement to the [Toyota] Carina and [Toyota] Corona siblings) - Peugeot 304 (revolved into the small family car class) - Citroen GS (FF, evolved into being powered with a Toyota-sourced inline-four engine, thus a basis for the said two vehicles)
• Large family car: Toyota Celica (evolved into being a large and FWD family car over being a coupe, plus a replacement to the [Toyota] Cressida aka [Toyota] Mark II in Japan) - Peugeot 404 (revolved into being a as a large thus FWD family car) - Citroen CX (FF, a basis for the said two vehicles)
• Executive car: Toyota Sceptre (see: Humber Sceptre, a replacement to the [Toyota] Crown, an evolution of being an executive FWD car) - Peugeot 504 (revolved into being an executive thus FWD car) - Citroen DS (FF, a basis for the said two vehicles)
• Grand tourer: Toyota Supra (went on to become the fastest and greatest front-wheel drive grand tourer/sports car coming from Asia) - Peugeot 604 (revolved into being a front-engine, front-wheel drive GT) - Citroen SM (FF, revolved into being powered with a Ferrari-sourced V6 engine licenced and reengineered by Toyota, thus a basis for the said two cars)
• Light commercial vehicle: Toyota HiAce (evolved into being a front-wheel drive LCV) - Peugeot Expert (a replacement to the [Peugeot] J7) - Citroën H Van (FF, a basis for the said two vehicles)

Bottomline, I will reflect this reply with a handful of members just to check this thread that woke:

• @Fuzzy Dunlop
• @Dr Dee
• @Rfl23
• @Peg Leg Pom
• @AdA
• @Petike
• @EvilSpaceAlien
• @TheMann
• @Gannt the chartist
• @Masked Grizzly
• @Simon
• @RandomChance
• @PNWKing
• @PauL62
• @CivoLee

- Genda Nicolai Yturzaeta Iwakawa/awakawI ateazrutY ialociN adneG

 

[AdA]

I don't think Toyota and PSA are a good match, since in the 80s they had the same strengths and competed more than complemented each other. Peugeot went on to build some front wheel drive cars with legendary handling in their sporting versions (205 GTi, 306GTi, 405 Mi16) but was loosing its money earning reputation as a maker of boringly reliable family cars while Toyota was entering a period when it became legendary for reliability and affordable quality. In the African market Toyota was basically taking over Peugeot market and would not want to buy what they were taking over anyway.

 

[ialociN_Nicolai_11x2_1995]

I don't think Toyota and PSA are a good match, since in the 80s they had the same strengths and competed more than complemented each other. Peugeot went on to build some front wheel drive cars with legendary handling in their sporting versions (205 GTi, 306GTi, 405 Mi16) but was loosing its money earning reputation as a maker of boringly reliable family cars while Toyota was entering a period when it became legendary for reliability and affordable quality. In the African market Toyota was basically taking over Peugeot market and would not want to buy what they were taking over anyway.

Well, for the irony however, I even presented you to check this recently-made thread out anyway:

Automotive WI: Toyota buys Fiat SpA, which contains Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, and Lancia, circa 1980s or [c.] 1990s - this means "Fix it again, Toyota"

Well let me put that this hypothetically-speaking automotive WI here, then I would rather showcase this thread with links to check out: === The precursors/prequels to this thread...

www.alternatehistory.com

That was because, the 1980s was a decade of poor styling ideas. Instead, the rest of the 1990s or circa 2000s were those decades which Toyota would already have the potential to acquire PSA as times changed. But earlier on, one of the reasons why the former [Toyota] would have the opportunity to take over PSA meant the latter [Peugeot] possess deeply weak sales presence in Southeast Asia - a market where Toyota is deeply tough yet significant as Japan is geographically closer to Southeast Asian territory.

Toyota's reason to takeover PSA just for the former to expand the latter's presence in the Southeast Asian market was something derived from the Chinese market's playbook of letting its [China's] people to buy Western car manufacturers' vehicles, particularly General Motors' Buick brand - which is deeply popular in China ever since before and after World War II. Especially, there are factors why the Chinese people have deeply possessed the aspiration to buy Buick-branded cars and as well as Toyota's takeover of PSA Peugeot Citroen:

• Because, China was invaded by Japan during WWII, this explains profoundly why there are such reasons the Chinese market prefer to expand the sales of PSA, GM (Buick), and Volkswagen cars - as well as its people encouraging themselves to buy the aforementioned three's vehicles because they are deeply yet practically non-existent elsewhere around Asia except China for example
• Toyota's acquisition of PSA just for the latter to find new life in Southeast Asia meant the former [Toyota] was immediately approached by China's Dongfeng Motor Corporation somewhere in the 1980s or 1990s, but due to the Chinese's profoundly bitter memories and relations with the Japanese, and to a lesser extent, the French (due to the impact of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests) meant Dongfeng's approach to form a deal with both Citroen and Toyota were decided to be canned in favour of the latter [Toyota] to purchase PSA Peugeot Citroen - the outcome of the takeover was PSA benefited from Toyota's deeply tough significances in the Southeast Asian, Oceanian, and South African markets.
• As I having said earlier that the people of China refused themselves to buy Japanese cars due to its [Japan's] actions towards the Chinese during WWII, then Peugeot's benefit from access to Toyota's tour of Southeast Asia meant it manifested the latter's memories of being invaded by the Japanese during World War II. Despite many countries in that part of Asia (Southeast) had let its people encourage Japan an apology for what they did, then the fantasy of Toyota buying stakes in PSA meant it even helped numerous Southeast Asians to buy Peugeots and Citroens - arguably the more PSA would benefit from Southeast Asian sales via Toyota was the more the former would end up becoming one of the biggest European car manufacturers in the world... [For sure, @Rfl23 would see this reply I posted since he comes from Indonesia.]