Automotive WI - Kaiser-Frazer's experimental 288 V8 entered production

What-If the experimental 288ci / 4.7 Kaiser-Frazer V8 OHV entered production in 1951 onwards?

Would Kaiser-Frazer have fared any better compared to OTL?
 
It wouldn't hurt 'em, but they're facing pretty stiff competition from the Big 3, & that isn't changing. The 288 in the Henry J would appeal to a lot of hot rodders; swapping the 288 would probably appeal, too, taking some of the Olds 303s & 324s. My question is, was the 288 lighter or smaller in external dimension than the Olds? It's bound to be smaller than the Cad, so it probably displaces quite a few Stude conversions (OTL's Studillacs or Studellacs).

By the time AMC gets their hands on it, it's good for the Lark/Daytona, Hawk, & President, & maybe even the Javelin & AMX (tho by then, I'd expect displacement to have grown).

Generally, I'd expect it to be not much more than a footnote in automotive history.
 
Masked Grizzly said:
Found some info from the following:
1) - http://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/2015/02/24/a-v8-that-never-was-the-kaiser-frazer-288/
2) - http://www.kaiserbill.com/Flyers/1.pdf
3) - http://www.kaiserbill.com/Flyers/4.pdf

Appears some allege the Kaiser V8 later formed the basis of the AMC V8 given that engineer David Potter worked on both engines.
Looking at the PDFs, I'd revise my remarks. I think the claim of the early ponycar is overblown, but something close to the '49 Merc isn't out of bounds. As for the Darrin, IMO it approaches the Corvette, which TTL K-F could beat by two years, & with a V8 against Chevy's Stovebolt 6. Whether that moves Chevy to make the 'vette an Olds (with the 303) is another thread.(plug:p) A 'vette analog might help K-F more than I thought.
 
I think Dave Potters experience with the K-F V-8 certainly helped in designing the Gen-1 AMC V-8. Not only in what was known to work but what ws not. But I also think that a lot of the early V-8s were inspired by the Cadillac and Olds V-8s also. The AMC Gen-1 is a lot like a Ford FE too. Every body got their hands on the competitions cars and ore them down to see what everyone else was doing. Good ideas get copied. Bad ideas don't. Chevy's Small Block was certainly the insperation for Ford's own smallblock as well as Chryslers LA, the Buick/Olds 215 and AMC's Gen-2/3 in terms of thin wall castings, the use of casting vs forging and the like.
 
Looking at the PDFs, I'd revise my remarks. I think the claim of the early ponycar is overblown, but something close to the '49 Merc isn't out of bounds. As for the Darrin, IMO it approaches the Corvette, which TTL K-F could beat by two years, & with a V8 against Chevy's Stovebolt 6. Whether that moves Chevy to make the 'vette an Olds (with the 303) is another thread.(plug:p) A 'vette analog might help K-F more than I thought.

How long would the V8 allow ATL Kaiser-Frazer / Kaiser Jeep to hold out for before being bought out by another company?
 
Masked Grizzly said:
How long would the V8 allow ATL Kaiser-Frazer / Kaiser Jeep to hold out for before being bought out by another company?
I can't claim to know K-F's financial situation well enough to do more than guess. Jeep was a moneymaker, but Kaiser (sez WP:eek:) ignored advice from Frazer & the automotive specialists... I don't think the 288, by itself, changes much. A sporty Darrin with the 288 helps, but I don't think it overcomes bad management.

As said, the influence is probably more in what other companies do & don't build in reaction to it. The Darrin could spark the 'vette, or move it up-market. (IDK where K-F was.) It could equally spark the T-bird. Either one could be enough to drive K-F under, unable to keep up, & the sale to AMC might well be sooner, in response.

IMO, K-F's going to end up part of AMC regardless. Might be a year or two difference, tops.
 
By 1951, Frazer was all but done as a marque. A V8 might have kept it afloat maybe another couple of years if the trim levels and creature comforts had been upgraded to match (at least!) Buick, if not the lower levels of Cadillac and Lincoln.

A V8 in a Kaiser probably would have kept that marque going another several years. Then things get interesting. It's not impossible that Kaiser and Studebaker-Packard might have gotten together with Packard replacing the erstwhile Frazer as the top of the line--and avoiding the so-called Packabakers of 1957 and 1958. By now, Nash and Hudson are on the edge of forming American Motors IOTL; perhaps instead Hudson joins KSP (Kaiser-Studebaker-Packard) and Nash is somehow fit into Chrysler's lineup, perhaps between Dodge and De Soto.

That makes several venerable names last quite a while longer. We may see Packard and De Soto production well into the 1960s or even the 1970s, for example.

Ultimately, though, there's likely to be some attrition, with KSP as the odd man out. What would survive--my guess is Kaiser for mid- and full-size cars; Studebaker for trucks; Henry J / Allstate for compacts--would wind up as part of a larger Chrysler organization perhaps in the 1980s or early 1990s. Still, you'd see contemporary Hudson Hornets and Kaiser Manhattans coming out of showrooms today.
 
1940LaSalle said:
By 1951, Frazer was all but done as a marque. A V8 might have kept it afloat maybe another couple of years if the trim levels and creature comforts had been upgraded to match (at least!) Buick, if not the lower levels of Cadillac and Lincoln.
I'm wondering if the marque has the cachet to compete. Against Buick or Olds, maybe; against Cad or Lincoln, no. Do you think the Darrin coupe changes that?
1940LaSalle said:
A V8 in a Kaiser probably would have kept that marque going another several years. Then things get interesting. It's not impossible that Kaiser and Studebaker-Packard might have gotten together with Packard replacing the erstwhile Frazer as the top of the line--and avoiding the so-called Packabakers of 1957 and 1958. By now, Nash and Hudson are on the edge of forming American Motors IOTL; perhaps instead Hudson joins KSP (Kaiser-Studebaker-Packard) and Nash is somehow fit into Chrysler's lineup, perhaps between Dodge and De Soto.
IMO, if Stude is part of the deal, it's going to sink K-F.:eek: A Packard-Kaiser merger seems unlikely, given Packard's reputation, but maybe they want access to Kaiser's $$? Maybe a Packard-Kaiser-Willys (Jeep)-Nash analog to AMC? (Might be you'd see Stude get out of the car biz & Jeeps turned over to Stude truck division, leading to something like the PowerWagon or Commanche.)
1940LaSalle said:
That makes several venerable names last quite a while longer. We may see Packard and De Soto production well into the 1960s or even the 1970s, for example.
Packard, yes; DeSoto, I doubt it. It was already under fire from Dodge...:eek:
1940LaSalle said:
Ultimately, though, there's likely to be some attrition, with KSP as the odd man out. What would survive--my guess is Kaiser for mid- and full-size cars; Studebaker for trucks; Henry J / Allstate for compacts--would wind up as part of a larger Chrysler organization perhaps in the 1980s or early 1990s. Still, you'd see contemporary Hudson Hornets and Kaiser Manhattans coming out of showrooms today.
I like it.:cool: Here's a thought: the *Henry J (tho it really needs a better name:rolleyes:) as the prototype muscle car, akin to the Road Runner. (Maybe it's nearer the Willys Aero? Or maybe there's a Willys version?:cool: Styling resembling the '65 'stang?:cool:) Add the Darrin *Corvette...:cool: And doing it forces an Olds *Corvette (the F-88?), an earlier (Merc) *T-bird (Cougar?), an earlier *Mustang & *Camaro, & an earlier *'cuda?:cool:
 
I dont know much about the US car market but wasnt Henry Kaiser supposed to be richer than God. A quick read of wiki says that Kaiser cars was always short of money to develop new models. Were did the $ go.
 
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