Automotive AHC/WI - Saving the domestic British Motor Industry

[phx1138]

well，I'll try to explain

Chassis code	Model Years	Model	Engine	No. built [9]
W116.020	1973–1980	280 S sedan	2.8 L M110 I6	122,848
W116.024	1973–1980	280 SE sedan	2.8 L M110 I6	150,593
W116.025	1974–1980	280 SEL sedan	2.8 L M110 I6	7,032
W116.028	1973–1980	350 SE sedan	3.5 L M116 V8	51,100
W116.029	1973–1980	350 SEL sedan	3.5 L M116 V8	4,266
W116.032	1973–1980	450 SE sedan	4.5 L M117 V8	41,604
W116.033	1973–1980	450 SEL sedan	4.5 L M117 V8	59,578
W116.036	1975–1980	450 SEL 6.9	6.9 L M100 V8	7,380

I look at that, & I see the chance for Jag selling 90-100,000 V8s (350SE, 350SEL, & 450SE), with the V12 taking on the 450SEL & 450SEL 6.9.

I'm also not sure you can directly compare Jag & Benz... Given the "feel" of the Jag, I'd be aiming at the Bimmers more than the Benzes.

I may be too wedded to V8s...but the step from straight six to V12 feels pretty steep to me.

 

[oliver123]

I look at that, & I see the chance for Jag selling 90-100,000 V8s (350SE, 350SEL, & 450SE), with the V12 taking on the 450SEL & 450SEL 6.9.

I'm also not sure you can directly compare Jag & Benz... Given the "feel" of the Jag, I'd be aiming at the Bimmers more than the Benzes.

I may be too wedded to V8s...but the step from straight six to V12 feels pretty steep to me.

Well，but 90k-10k in 8 year was not a big volume
about 12k per year，about 7k perV12 year at the same time
I must emphasize that the Jagua’s V12 production line could produce at least 50K per year, and it is reported that it can reach 100k per year

On the other hand, Mercedes Benz provides 3.5v8 because 4.5v8 is too big for the European market.
A V8 larger than 4L can't really match，It would more appropriate to use 3.6L L6 matching

I give the example of Mercedes Benz because only Mercedes Benz has such a large engine
The biggest BMW engine was 3.3/3.5L6，the basic L6 could match it

 

[oliver123]

I look at that, & I see the chance for Jag selling 90-100,000 V8s (350SE, 350SEL, & 450SE), with the V12 taking on the 450SEL & 450SEL 6.9.

I'm also not sure you can directly compare Jag & Benz... Given the "feel" of the Jag, I'd be aiming at the Bimmers more than the Benzes.

I may be too wedded to V8s...but the step from straight six to V12 feels pretty steep to me.

I agree that there was a big gap between L6 and V12，But I don't think it's necessary to fill it
I means that the prices of these cars are so high that there are so few people could afford them that it's impossible to make an extra engine economical
Mercedes does have 3.5 and 4.5v8, but they don't offer 3.5 in the United States
because the price range can't accommodate three engines, and it's uneconomic to pay for the certification fee
What's the difference for Jaguar？
The The L6 can match most of BMW and Mercedes Benz，and meet the needs of most people
If you want something more exclusive and can pay more, what could be better than a V12
If really want something between the L6 and V12, the 24 V or turbo / supercharge will not only be much cheaper, but also more exotic than the V8

 

[phx1138]

I agree that there was a big gap between L6 and V12，But I don't think it's necessary to fill it

If really want something between the L6 and V12, the 24 V or turbo / supercharge will not only be much cheaper, but also more exotic than the V8

I disagree slightly with the first part, but a 24v six is the better option.

Well，but 90k-10k in 8 year was not a big volume
about 12k per year，about 7k per year at the same time
I must emphasize that the Jagua’s V12 production line could produce at least 50K per year, and it is reported that it can reach 100k per year

That's the best argument yet, for me.

I'm sold.

 

[oliver123]

I disagree slightly with the first part, but a 24v six is the better option.

That's the best argument yet, for me.

I'm sold.

The problem of 24V was that it may be a bit early for the 1970s
Triumph did offer the world's first mass-produced 4-Valve engine in 1973, but reliability was a disaster
I think the best route is V12 at 6.4l from the beginning（It is said that experimental 6.4L has better fuel economy than 5.3L）
And produce two related slant-6
a 3.2L SOHC as an introduction ，replace the 2.8/3.4L XK6
a 3.6L DOCH（had a different head）as main sales,replace the 4.2L XK6
a 6.4L SHOC V12 at the top
Only 3.6L and 6.4l are available in the United States
By the late 1970s,the 3.6 Slant6 could got 24 V or turbocharged to fill the gap

The biggest difference between the Jaguar V12 and the V12 of Mercedes and BMW was
It was designed in the 1960s，a time before the Oil Crisis、CAFE 、 emission regulations and runaway inflation
A time when Cadillac use 8.0L engine and had the similar price with Jaguar and Mercedes
The Jaguar V12 was designed as the main sales engine
Jaguar's OTL plan is to provide V12 for the United States and 3.5L 60 ° V8 for Europe.
However, they finally found that the 60 ° V8 could not meet their nhv requirements and the manufacturing cost was higher than V12 Because they have to use double balancing shafts

 

[oliver123]

I am saying the Borgward-badged Austin (or Morris, or whatever) should be restyled--if the local market wants it enough.

It's possible，Because borgward would definitely made bodies
Restyled doesn't have to be expensive——They need separate tools anyway
But I thought Pan European style were more meaningful
The Borgward would become the production base in EEC
I thought the cars made by Borgward would marked as Asutin sold to France and Italy



In addition, I completed my ATL for the UK motor industry
I think we can have some discussions

Automotive WI: Counterfactual British Automobile Industry

Sorry for my grammar mistakes and strange words，I'm not a native English speaker This counterfactual is to create a leading British car company in the world In order to achieve this impossible task I had to do a lot of wishful thinking，and understated the difficulties But I will always focus on...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[phx1138]

It's possible，Because borgward would definitely made bodies
Restyled doesn't have to be expensive——They need separate tools anyway
But I thought Pan European style were more meaningful
The Borgward would become the production base in EEC
I thought the cars made by Borgward would marked as Asutin sold to France and Italy

That's pretty much my thinking, too. I wouldn't oppose separate assembly in Italy, Spain, or Belgium, per OTL, with enough reason.

 

[phx1138]

The problem of 24V was that it may be a bit early for the 1970s
Triumph did offer the world's first mass-produced 4-Valve engine in 1973, but reliability was a disaster

4v heads had been around quite awhile already (first was 1919, IIRC). Having one properly engineered for production shouldn't be impossible, but that does demand sufficient testing before it's put on sale.

I think the best route is V12 at 6.4l from the beginning（It is said that experimental 6.4L has better fuel economy than 5.3L）
And produce two related slant-6
a 3.2L SOHC as an introduction ，replace the 2.8/3.4L XK6
a 3.6L DOCH（had a different head）as main sales,replace the 4.2L XK6
a 6.4L SHOC V12 at the top
Only 3.6L and 6.4l are available in the United States
By the late 1970s,the 3.6 Slant6 could got 24 V or turbocharged to fill the gap

That works for me. I think I'd drop either the 3.2 or 3.6 & only offer one inline six, & either SOHC or DOHC, not both; maybe start with the SOHC, then go 24v DOHC (&, my pet idea, FI, probably sourced from Bosch).

A time when Cadillac use 8.0L engine and had the similar price with Jaguar and Mercedes

That still astounds me.

 

[oliver123]

4v heads had been around quite awhile already (first was 1919, IIRC). Having one properly engineered for production shouldn't be impossible, but that does demand sufficient testing before it's put on sale.

That works for me. I think I'd drop either the 3.2 or 3.6 & only offer one inline six, & either SOHC or DOHC, not both; maybe start with the SOHC, then go 24v DOHC (&, my pet idea, FI, probably sourced from Bosch).

That still astounds me.

DOHC is too complex for V12
SOHC may not be powerful enough for L6. As far as I know, Jaguar uses disc combustor to ensure excellent nhv, which will affect performance
Of course, maybe could choose the compromise head of SOHC, but it's beyond my knowledge
I thought they can afford two heads

 

[phx1138]

DOHC is too complex for V12
SOHC may not be powerful enough for L6.

I'm not seeing the issue on a V12: driving one cam or two isn't really a big deal, AFAIK. (That said, I wouldn't demand DOHC on the V12, but I'd like it for the six.) As for "not powerful enough", again, I don't see it. It's the head design that counts: a 24v six, SOHC or DOHC, amounts to the same thing, if the valve sizes & flow rates are the same.

 

[oliver123]

I'm not seeing the issue on a V12: driving one cam or two isn't really a big deal, AFAIK. (That said, I wouldn't demand DOHC on the V12, but I'd like it for the six.) As for "not powerful enough", again, I don't see it. It's the head design that counts: a 24v six, SOHC or DOHC, amounts to the same thing, if the valve sizes & flow rates are the same.

Well，I means OTL V12 head for"SOHC"
A compromise design should be feasible

 

[phx1138]

Well，I means OTL V12 head for"SOHC"
A compromise design should be feasible

AFAIK, the OTL V12 was a 12v; going to 24v would be a very good idea, IMO.

 

[oliver123]

AFAIK, the OTL V12 was a 12v; going to 24v would be a very good idea,

I think you mean 24 V and 48 v
That's too complicated.
I'm sure Jaguar doesn't have the ability to make it reliable
Even Mercedes in the 1990s couldn't make the 48V V12 reliable. They developed a new shoc 36V V12 to replace it in a few years

 

[phx1138]

I think you mean 24 V and 48 v

I should've stuck w 2/4v...

That's too complicated.
I'm sure Jaguar doesn't have the ability to make it reliable
Even Mercedes in the 1990s couldn't make the 48V V12 reliable. They developed a new shoc 36V V12 to replace it in a few years

IDK if Jag, or anybody, could make a 4v V12 reliable; I don't think TTL's Jag needs to try.

 

[oliver123]

I should've stuck w 2/4v...

IDK if Jag, or anybody, could make a 4v V12 reliable; I don't think TTL's Jag needs to try.

That's why I suggest two heads
V12 has to be simple and conservative，to ensure reliability
A different head will allow Jaguar to play more freely，Instead of having to compromise with V12

 

[phx1138]

That's why I suggest two heads
V12 has to be simple and conservative，to ensure reliability
A different head will allow Jaguar to play more freely，Instead of having to compromise with V12

I'm honestly not seeing any connection. The six & twelve would obviously be different, wouldn't they? Given different bore & stroke (or one of them, anyhow), for a start.

 

[oliver123]

I'm honestly not seeing any connection. The six & twelve would obviously be different, wouldn't they? Given different bore & stroke (or one of them, anyhow), for a start.

I may not have made it clear
The slant6 I suggest is based on the v12
, sharing tools and production lines, Sawn in half

the 3.2 sohc would share the same head、 bore、storke with v12

the 3.6 got a different head and boring

 

[phx1138]

I may not have made it clear
The slant6 I suggest is based on the v12
, sharing tools and production lines, Sawn in half

the 3.2 sohc would share the same head、 bore、storke with v12

the 3.6 got a different head and boring

That might work. I'm seeing the V12 having smaller displacement, but that may be too influenced by OTL. For sales in the U.S., a bigger V12 could be an advantage.

If you're doing that, IMO, any DOHC you can make work on the 3.6 should readily back- & cross-fit: the basic architecture would be the same. (I'm going to presume a simple chain drive, until somebody figures out belt drives are quieter.)

 

[oliver123]

That might work. I'm seeing the V12 having smaller displacement, but that may be too influenced by OTL. For sales in the U.S., a bigger V12 could be an advantage.

If you're doing that, IMO, any DOHC you can make work on the 3.6 should readily back- & cross-fit: the basic architecture would be the same. (I'm going to presume a simple chain drive, until somebody figures out belt drives are quieter.)

Yes, but 3.2 deliberately uses SOHC to ensure that it is not good enough to threaten the sales volume of 3.6
Also could provides more economies of scale for the SOHC head of V12
I am not very familiar about us, but European manufacturers will deliberately provide bad engines on the entry model
such as 280s/bmw725

 

[phx1138]

Yes, but 3.2 deliberately uses SOHC to ensure that it is not good enough to threaten the sales volume of 3.6
Also could provides more economies of scale for the SOHC head of V12
I am not very familiar about us, but European manufacturers will deliberately provide bad engines on the entry model
such as 280s/bmw725

I'm not seeing Jag using both 3.2 & 3.6 at the same time, somehow. There wouldn't be much need for two sixes. An entry-level model with a straight four might be a good idea, but AFAIK, Jag's never contemplated one. And the mid-range V8 looks unlikely, too, so...