Automotive AHC/WI - Saving the domestic British Motor Industry

The subject on saving the British Motor Industry has been explored many times over the years, one constant amongst many however would have to be the fact that a number of earlier PODs would be required from around 1870 to 1945 just to lay down the groundwork in terms of investment, modernization and more.

Anything later would run into various issues that would only serve to undermine British carmakers, that is unless one's definition of success for the British Motor Industry involves cars still being produced in the UK yet with virtually none being domestically owned


The following is few ideas focused mainly on ATL BMC though will not touch upon Rover much (let alone MG).

To start with you would need to lay the groundwork between 1870-1945 for the UK to not end up bankrupt after WW2 in order to gracefully decline from being an empire and focus on domestic infrastructure projects, etc. They receive a gift instead of the Anglo-American Loan from the US.

Morris would invest in modern tooling and more like Austin did under Leonard Lord and build upon the success of the Minor and related derivatives, so that the formation of BMC is a merger of equals instead of Morris being weaker of the two that would end up causing BMC problems later on. The formation of BMC would also be sealed with an unconditional cash injection by the government (ignoring any potential protests by Ford and GM) that goes towards modernizing its production line and tooling to be roughly comparable to Renault and Fiat (the same would be done with a later ATL merger between Leyland and Rootes) without being forced to build plants outside its industrial heartlands to strike prone parts of the country.

Riley and Wolseley would be discontinued from the late-1950s in favour of MG and Vanden Plas (the latter gradually reduced to a trim level upon acquiring Rover). Issigonis would be kept on a tight leash with Joe Edwards succeeding Leonard Lord instead of George Harriman.

The above enables the A-Series, B-Series and C-Series engines to be built on modern production lines / tooling instead of old transfer machinery and thereby allow for various schemes to update, upgrade and lighten the engines to be realized with the B-Series (1.6-2.0 plus OHC/DOHC as well as Blue Streak 2.4-3.0) and C-Series (2.6-3.0 OHC/DOHC) later being replaced from the early/mid-1960s by 1.5-2.0 4-cylinder and 2.0-3.0 6-cylinder ATL E-Series petrol / diesel engines that is a composite of the OTL BL S-Series, Volkswagen EA827 as well as the Nissan CA / Nissan CD engines (the Nissan engines being distantly related to the B-Series) followed by a Volkswagen EA113/Nissan SR-meets Project Storm / Td5 modular inspired successor.

The result is Morris and MG mechanicals and componentry would be paired with mostly Austin engines (sans Morris developed C-Series) to create the ATL Farinas that would feature more modern Pininfarina styling themes with suitable longevity as used by Fiat, Lancia, Nissan, Isuzu, etc (e.g. Minor-based Farina in place of Farina A40, Oxford III/Magnette ZB-based Farina B in place of Cambridge A55-based Farina B, etc), instead of the old fashioned Austin-derived Farina models. They would also be twined with MG sportscars and saloons to increase component sharing and atomize costs (allowing for more sophisticated suspension as originally planned on the MGB) to be utilized (prior to MG being twinned with Rover). - https://driventowrite.com/2020/12/05/1960-peugeot-404-history-profile/

Morris would eventually give way to Austin (or both Morris and Austin giving way to BMC) leading to a range composed of Austin (or BMC), MG and Rover / Land Rover / Range Rover. The alternate being Austin (or BMC) itself giving way to Mini, MG, Rover / Land Rover / Range Rover.

The ATL A-Series itself would potentially displace around 721-1380cc in 4-cylinder form, feature OHC/DOHC (with production run akin to Renault Cleon / Energy) amongst other developments to remain in production to as late as 2004 (if required) and spawn dieselized variants as well as possibly even 475-690cc 2-cylinder (ATL properly-developed ADO11 with balance-shafts akin to Daihatsu A-Series / Mitsubishi Vulcan twins) and 728/748-1035cc 3-cylinder versions if deemed necessary (Innocenti for example wanted a Mini-Mini to take on the Fiat 500).

The ATL Mini and 1100/1300 would be better costed compared to OTL with increased component sharing (thanks to the Research Department being involved in the beginning), both would be equipped with hatchbacks though the 1100/1300 as well as the ATL 1800 would feature end-on gearboxes (whilst the Mini would spawn 4/5-door variants from the 84-inch wheelbase).

The Mini II - also known as the 12-inch wheel or exclusively 84-inch wheelbase generation (with a length of 124-inches) would later follow the ATL 1100/1300 by featuring an end-on gearbox, with increased component sharing with ADO22.

The ATL 1100/1300 or ADO16 meanwhile would be a 3/5-door hatchback and 2/4-door three-box saloon displacing 1100-1600cc with more modern Pininfarina styling compared to OTL, its superior space efficiency relative to its size and engines up to 1600cc allow it to keep up with the mk1/mk2 Ford Cortina over the course of the 1960s prior to being replaced by ADO22.

The ATL 1800 or ADO17 meanwhile would not drift away from its brief to be a larger car (like in OTL) yet it would go on to spawn such a model (e.g. Vanden Plas specific 1600-2400cc X6), instead it would be conceptually akin to an earlier ATL Austin Maxi though with better Pininfarina styling, end-on gearbox, 100-inch wheelbase and engines displacing 1300-2000cc (possibly as much as 2400cc) with 5-door hatchback and 4-door three-box saloon bodystyles. It would later be replaced by the ATL Princess or ADO71 though now reminiscent to the OTL Simca Alpine / Solara and OTL mk2 Vauxhall Cavalier / Opel Ascona C (aka GM J Car) in terms of dimensions and take on the mk3-mk5 Ford Cortina (with ADO22 taking on the Volkswagen Golf and Simca 1100).


The ATL Austin 3-litre would instead appear in the early/mid-1960s, be equipped without the doors of the 1800 and be sold as a Vanden Plas with only the ATL Bentley Korea/Burma-derived ADO58 being the flagship of the Vanden Plas range prior to BMC acquiring Rover, where the Vanden Plas 6X and Korea/Burma-based ADO58 flagship would be indirectly replaced by the ATL Rover P10 and Rover P8.


ATL Mini II (aka ATL Project Ant/ADO20/Minki), ADO22 and ADO71 would later be replaced from the mid/late-1970s by the Mini III* and ATL Metro as well as the ATL Maestro and Montego with the latter three featuring Pininfarina styling.


*- Mini III would essentially based on the ATL ADO88/LC8 Metro with the latter sitting at the lower B Segment and the former slotting into the A segment as a smaller car with a length of 126-130-inches (to the ATL Metro's 134-138-inches). Another idea is for the Maestro/Montego to form the basis of a SWB ADO16-sized Pininfarina-styled supermini in the manner of the Fiat Ritmo/SEAT Ronda-based mk1 SEAT Ibiza.


The 1980s would lead to the ATL ADO88/LC8/R6/R6X being utilized for the A segment only in the form of the Mini IV (think Ford B platform), whilst carrying over advances from the ATL AR6 that would not only underpin the ATL Metro II but also be upscaled to replace both the Maestro and Montego as the company heads into the 1990s onwards (also with Pininfarina styling) with its cars featuring Peugeot-inspired Pininfarina styling as well as Peugeot/Nissan-inspired mechanicals in benchmark terms.
 
Last edited:
The following ideas are connected to my previous post though focused on Leyland as well as Rootes Group and (to a lesser extent) Jaguar, essentially the automotive division of ATL Leyland would eventually be composed of Triumph and Jaguar, the commercial division would still be Leyland with the motorcycle division being composed of Triumph (and either Leyland, Swallow or Reliant being utilized for the lower motorcycle tier e.g. scooters/mopeds/3-wheelers/etc).

The scenario mentioned in the previous post would also play a beneficial role for the constituent parts that would later make up ATL Leyland aka Jaguar-Triumph that came about from Leyland acquiring both Rootes and Jaguar in 1966, yet will only focus on Rootes and Triumph at the moment.

Early EEC entry in 1963 would allow the company to increase their presence in continental Europe (and increase production capacity) by acquiring both the Commercial Vehicle and Automotive divisions of DAF during the late-1960s to early-1970s (that helps play a role in saving Leyland's commercial division) allowing Rootes/Triumph models to use Variomatic CVT (and related DAF CVT derivatives), along with later on Bedford Vehicles and Daewoo Commercial Vehicles as well as possibly acquiring Ashok Leyland, Standard Motor Products of India and Automotive Products of India. With even the Saab automotive division and Isuzu possibly being on the cards.

Leyland meanwhile would be in a unique position to be a potential candidate to take over both DAF Trucks as well as its automotive division, with the former the ATL Leyland O.680 engine would pretty much evolve and be significantly developed/re-engineered along the same lines as what DAF achieved with the same engine to much success in OTL (Leyland's commercial division potentially being bolstered by later acquisitions of Bedford Vehicles, Daewoo Commercial Vehicles, etc).

The latter meanwhile would provide Leyland with the VDL Nedcar factory and the Variomatic transmission amongst other things with Michelotti already having links to both Triumph and DAF Cars. That would have some effect on Volvo in ATL, while Triumph already had ties with Saab in OTL that could have been further expanded upon in ATL via a scenario where Leyland later on ends up acquiring Saab as well as potentially even Volvo (both the automotive along with the commercial divisions - though with Volvo also potentially being merged with Renault or acquired by Ford as in OTL).


- Rootes -

ATL Minx OHV would evolve along similar lines as the related 1296-1948cc Isuzu G petrol and 1764-1951cc Isuzu C diesel engines with the ATL Super Minx and Hunter being more akin to the Isuzu Bellett and Isuzu Florian respectively in terms of size, style, sophistication and longevity.

Upon the formation of Jaguar-Triumph, the Rootes models would be replaced by Triumph badged Michelotti styled C Segment (ATL Toledo) and D Segment (Bobcat) models with the Humber models being replaced by Jaguars.

The ATL Hillman Imp would reach production earlier and be better developed (with an extra year’s worth of development) thanks to being built at Ryton (with a similar 150k or so yearly production capacity as Linwood) and there being no Acton Strikes, it would be powered by 800-1150cc (possibly even up to 1268cc) engines and feature a 4-door variant (akin to SEAT 850 and Simca 1000) as well as Asp sportscar, 2-door pick-up, a non-husky 3/5-door fastback estate that unlike real-life was not based on the existing now commercial-focused 3-door Husky panel-van / estate, 3/5-door hatchback (think SEAT 850-based SEAT 133), 2-door cabriolet (albeit full production version of Imp Crayford convertible), 2+2 Coupe (think Suzuki SC100 Whizzkid), a tastefully styled mid-60s production version of the BS Nymph / Gillie – a Mini Moke-inspired and rivalling buggy / utility vehicle (with optional solid doors / windows and hardtop roof) and Fiat 900-inspired microvan/bus/pick-up (with more utilitarian Rootes Farmobil-like/inspired variant) along with optional automatic and (Ferodo) semi-automatic gearboxes (if not Variomatic CVT).

The ATL Imp would later receive a thorough facelift / modernized 70s rebody from 1966 (alternate realized version of original Mark III plans though possibly with similar styling elements from the Michelotti styled DAF P300 prototype), prior to being replaced by an entry-level FWD Michelotti styled supermini called the Triumph Torch*.


- Triumph -

As a result of being built on a more modern production line with new tooling (instead of using the tooling from the Triumph Mayflower engine) one change would be the Standard-Triumph SC I4 engine avoiding devolving into becoming the real-life rationalisation / cost-cutting motivated 1296-1493cc floppy crank engines and its weaknesses / limitations, instead evolving into a more positive developmental direction such as featuring no recessed bores – potentially allowing for viable production 1546-1597cc overbores, 5-bearing crank and OHC conversion, etc.

The related Triumph I6 meanwhile would along with potentially receiving a OHC conversion would also be capable of enlargement beyond 2498cc to around 2593-2773cc with outputs up to 160-170+ hp, which may or may not equate to further enlargement of the Triumph I4 from 1493cc to around 1597-1849cc.

The ATL Ajax aka 1300/1500/Toledo/Dolomite would be front-engined RWD from the outset as a 1200-1500cc+ car with 2/4-door saloon, 3/5-door hatchback (think BMW 02 Touring and Project Sherpa in link) and 5-door estate bodystyles. - https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/triumph/dolomite/ajax-development-story/

The Ajax would later be replaced by the larger D Segment sized Triumph Bobcat project, essentially a Michelotti styled 4-door saloon and 5-door fastback hatchback version of the OTL Triumph Bullet/Lynx prototypes. - https://www.aronline.co.uk/concepts-and-prototypes/sports-car-projects-triumph/

However the void left by the smaller Ajax would be quickly filled by a Michelotti styled Triumph Toledo badged C Segment small saloon and hatchback, essentially a thoroughly developed project built from the remains of the OTL Hillman Avenger (and Sunbeam) upon Leyland merging with (or taking over) Rootes. Which would form the basis of a Triumph Spitfire replacement and Avenger-based Triumph analogue of the Isuzu Piazza.

The ATL 2000/2500 would spawn early convertible, T-bar and fastback coupe versions of the Stag, which along with larger Triumph I6s featuring possible OHC conversions and reliable fuel-injection would potentially completed by ATL reliable 3.0 Triumph V8 engines prior to being replaced by the Triumph Puma.


The ATL Triumph Torch* supermini project could go in about three different directions, ranging from:

1 - A modified rebodied longitudinally-engine FWD Imp platform as a 3/5-door fastback hatchback with Michelotti styling (think shrunken Saab 99 meets BMW 02 Touring), based on the OTL precedent set by Triumph who converted the Ajax platform (1300/1500/Toledo/Dolomite) from FWD to RWD.

It would likely be powered by 875-1150cc (up to 1268cc) Imp engines and if properly-developed (and small enough without significant weight penalty) 1250-1500/1700cc versions of the Triumph Slant-Four (mounted Saab 99/900-style).

2 - Triumph analogue of 135-140-inch length / 90-inch wheelbase ADO74 Ladybird (that spawned a related 144-150-inch length ADO74 Dragonfly three-box variant), exteriorly resembles the ADO74 Michelotti proposal though with alternative Clubman like front (see image of Austin-badged alternative ADO74 Michelotti proposal at front of 1st photo).
It would either carry over the 875-1150cc (up to 1268cc) engines from the Imp or utilize ATL 900-1300cc+ H/K-Series engines. https://www.aronline.co.uk/engines/engines-h-and-k-series-prototypes/

3 - Essentially a Triumph 1300-based Michelotti-styled analogue of the C segment Austin Allegro with conventional suspension that would either possibly spawn a SWB B segment supermini or basically be a related upscaled version of 2 (being to the ATL ADO74 what the OTL Renault 14 was to the Peugeot 104).

Though the OTL FWD Triumph 1300 would not reach production in ATL as a result of Ajax being RWD from the beginning. Triumph would later revisit the idea due to the void left by the Ajax-replacing Triumph Bobcat project being a D segment car, with there being lots of carry over to reduce costs such as the 1000-1500cc+ Triumph SC, larger 998-1150cc (up to 1268cc) Imp and 900-1300cc+ H/K-Series engines (the Slant-Four would be unlikely to fit with significant modification and redesign).

4 - An admittingly left field choice though basically a Leyland developed Michelotti styled version of the Issigonis 9X/10X prototype, premised on the idea of Alec Issigonis joining Leyland in 1971 after his 65th birthday from BMC where he semi-officially retired bringing along much of the 9X design team, gradually sidelining Harry Webster as a result of his weaknesses on make FWD cars space efficient and cost effective (see OTL Triumph 1300, ADO74 and Allegro with Webster laying out the design brief for latter).

It was at Leyland where he would potentially realise his own careering defining total artwork / Gesamtkunstwerk moment by developing a Leyland analogue of the Mini 9X / ADO16 10X project together with most of the Hillman Imp design team such as Mike Parkes, Tim Fry, Adrian West, Leo Kuzmicki, etc with both using the Autobianchi A112 as a template (with precursor elements of the Fiat Panda in terms of practicality and minimalism, etc) and reaching production a few years later.

It would either be powered by 800-1150cc (up to 1268cc) Imp engines or a more viable version of the 750-1000cc 9X 4-cylinder engine (with 4-cylinder displacement above 1000cc to around 1200-1300cc+ and no 6-cylinder).

Dilemmas ITTL:

The challenge for the 1970s beyond would be to figure out which path the company should go down in terms of engine development upon Leyland taking over Rootes and Jaguar in 1966 without overlapping too much with Jaguar.

In OTL Triumph developed the Triumph Slant-Four / V8, Rootes meanwhile were developing the Avenger 4-cylinder engine that was not only to displace as low as 1100cc and as high as 2000cc but also spawn a related 60-degree V6 and without costs being a factor ideally draw inspiration from the Fiat 124 Series engine / Fiat Twin-Cam engine.

ATL Leyland aka Jaguar-Triumph would not only be inheriting the ATL Imp, Isuzu-like Minx, Triumph I4 / I6 and Jaguar XK6 engines. But were also already simultaneously developing and investing money in the Avenger 4-cylinder / 60-degree V6, Triumph Slant-Four / V8 as well as the Jaguar V12 (that at one point included related 60-degree V6 or Slant-Six and 60-degree V8) engines prior to the merger, effectively creating a similar chaotic situation as OTL British Leyland though to a significantly lesser extent.

One solution is Jaguar appropriating the Triumph V8 to make it into its own and further enlarge it to 5-litres, whilst retaining the ATL XK6 and Jaguar V12.

However that still leaves Triumph with the choice of the Avenger 4-cylinder / 60-degree V6 or Triumph Slant-Four (and ATL 90-degree V6 or Slant-Six), Triumph V8 was dependent on the Slant-Four which would have required significant redesign to be mounted transversely whereas the Avenger engine had no such problem.

Both options though would not fit into B Segment (and under) cars that require more compact engines such as the 800-1150cc (up to 1268cc) ATL Imp or 900-1300cc H/K-Series engines,

A few Goals for 1980s and beyond ITTL:

Engine wise the goal ITTL is a 0.8-1.4-litre 3/4-cylinder petrol / diesel analogue of the largely Triumph-influenced Rover K-Series at the lower-end of the range to replace the ATL Imp or H/K-Series units, with a Jaguar AJ-V8 derived modular family of engines ranging from a 1.6-2.0-litre 4-cylinder to a 6.0-7.5-litre V12 (alternate AJ26 project – albeit known in ATL as the AJ40 engine project) replacing the rest of the company's engines.

Triumph analogue of Rover Mini Spiritual and Rover Mini Spiritual Too prototypes that instead harks back to the ATL Hillman Imp, albeit now in production in the early-2000s under the Triumph Imp name (below the Triumph Torch supermini) with a related mid-engined sportscar harking back to the Rootes Asp and an entry-level 2-seater drawing inspiration from the Bond Bug as well as a microvan/truck akin to Subaru Sambar/Sumo.
 
Last edited:

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
What seemed to kill the British, at least in the U.S., was their, largely earned, reputation for unreliability (with the exception of Land Rover and Jaguar, and even in those cases it was after they had been acquired by BMW and then Ford that the brands lost the bad rep). One of the lines I remember from the early 80s was that Jaguar had invented emergency flashers so people could find their cars on the side of the freeway.

The overall build quality, especially on MG and Triumphs (both of which had tons of appeal stylistically) was so lousy that it made American cars of the '70 & '80s look stellar (and this was the absolute nadir for the U.S. manufacturers, when the Japanese were mopping the floor with Detroit). People will only accept so many tow truck rides before they pull the eject handle, especially for a car that cost the same as Datsun (now Nissan) 240Z with the Z more or less running forever as long as you remembered to put gas in the tank.
 
You can talk about the product, and it could easily have been better, but one of the biggest and most underappreciated headwinds against the British car industry IOTL was simply that the domestic market was too small, especially after the competition with Ford and Vauxhall/GM.

Pushing for an earlier and deeper continental presence (to sidestep any political issues and get dug into those markets while they're booming most) and/or accepting that your volume car industry has too much working against it to really stay active and trying to focus on lower but higher-margin models (ie, Triumph in the slot that BMW occupies IOTL) might have worked, but those have obvious political problems at the time.
 
You can talk about the product, and it could easily have been better, but one of the biggest and most underappreciated headwinds against the British car industry IOTL was simply that the domestic market was too small, especially after the competition with Ford and Vauxhall/GM.

Pushing for an earlier and deeper continental presence (to sidestep any political issues and get dug into those markets while they're booming most) and/or accepting that your volume car industry has too much working against it to really stay active and trying to focus on lower but higher-margin models (ie, Triumph in the slot that BMW occupies IOTL) might have worked, but those have obvious political problems at the time.
What seemed to kill the British, at least in the U.S., was their, largely earned, reputation for unreliability (with the exception of Land Rover and Jaguar, and even in those cases it was after they had been acquired by BMW and then Ford that the brands lost the bad rep). One of the lines I remember from the early 80s was that Jaguar had invented emergency flashers so people could find their cars on the side of the freeway.

The overall build quality, especially on MG and Triumphs (both of which had tons of appeal stylistically) was so lousy that it made American cars of the '70 & '80s look stellar (and this was the absolute nadir for the U.S. manufacturers, when the Japanese were mopping the floor with Detroit). People will only accept so many tow truck rides before they pull the eject handle, especially for a car that cost the same as Datsun (now Nissan) 240Z with the Z more or less running forever as long as you remembered to put gas in the tank.


That is why the above is premised on the UK being in a better position in the 1870-1945 beginning with the UK not falling behind Germany and the US in the Second Industrial Revolution onwards via a butterfly netted scenario beforehand, it is that element that sticks out over the years as something that needs to be resolved for automotive and other British industries to not experience the drastic decline that they did in OTL.

Agree the likes of ATL BMC and Leyland could have certainty established a greater presence on the European continent, hardly expect either to be the British equivalents of General Motors though do see either being roughly comparable to Renault, Fiat and OTL PSA (post-Citroen/Chrysler takeover) at their peak.

BMC in France (albeit Cottin & Desgouttes instead of Leon Bollée Automobiles), Italy (Innocenti), Spain (Authi) and Turkey (BMC Turkey), Belgium (Seneffe) and possibly even Germany (by acquiring Borgward). They also could have established a better presence in South America (particularly Brazil instead of Argentina, Chile and Venezuela), India and North America* (including Mexico).

*- Hamilton - Ontario was one location Austin were looking at. Another would be a scenario where Austin acquired American Austin in 1932, moving the latter from its existing site at Butler, Pennsylvania to the former Locomobile Company of America factory in Bridgeport, Connecticut where production capacity could be easily increased to the scale needed by the US Department of War later on for it to at least be awarded the contracts for the Jeep (with its own engine) alongside Willys-Overland and Ford. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Austin_Car_Company#The_jeep_prototypes_and_pre-production_–_end_of_the_company

Consider how such a POD would benefit Austin / BMC later on in the aftermath of WW2 even if they would fall behind the larger US automakers, where the formation of BMC in OTL (with Morris being the weaker partner) created the World's 4th Largest Carmaker for a time** and imagine an ATL BMC where Morris was not only equal to Austin beforehand but also already established a presence on the European continent in France (with ATL Morris owned Cottin & Desgouttes being comparable to Fiat established Simca or NSU-Fiat) and elsewhere.

**- While the OTL BMC's status as the World's 4th Largest Carmaker in 1952 would appear to put it behind the US Big Three, it would be interesting to see where it stood in relation to Hudson and Nash prior to the latter two merging to become AMC in 1954.

Leyland meanwhile via an earlier UK EEC entry in 1963 could have potentially acquired both the commercial and automobile divisions of DAF instead of Volvo. They could have probably benefited more from acquiring Borgward compared to BMC ITTL, however ATL Leyland would only became a major automotive player upon acquiring Rootes and Jaguar in 1966 (short of Leyland acquiring Rootes in the early-1960s pre-1963).

Putting it together is indeed a challenge though not completely implausible if one investigates what was considered in OTL.
 
Last edited:

marathag

Banned
That is why the above is premised on the UK being in a better position in the 1870-1945 beginning with the UK not falling behind Germany and the US in the Second Industrial Revolution onwards via a butterfly netted scenario beforehand, it is that element that sticks out over the years as something that needs to be resolved for automotive and other British industries to not experience the drastic decline that they did in OTL.
The most modern assembly complex on the planet in 1970, the first wide usage of six axis robot welders, did not make for a decent product rolling out from Lordstown, Ohio

Just as the UAW did not make things better for the Chevy Vega, you still have the same issue with workers in the UK.

Datsun and Honda did so well, as :
New, modern Factories
designs that would be popular from low cost(not built cheap) reliability, and clear role in the marketplace
decent dealer network, that provided feedback on customer praise and criticism
Management and Labor working together

Now for the Mini, it was just too small, underpowered and underoptioned for US Market

paying extra for a heater and rolldown windows was accepted in the US in 1938, but not 1968

The Japanese didn't sent their tiny cars over, knowing from experience that it wasn't a good fit for the US market
 
The most modern assembly complex on the planet in 1970, the first wide usage of six axis robot welders, did not make for a decent product rolling out from Lordstown, Ohio

Just as the UAW did not make things better for the Chevy Vega, you still have the same issue with workers in the UK.

Datsun and Honda did so well, as :
New, modern Factories
designs that would be popular from low cost(not built cheap) reliability, and clear role in the marketplace
decent dealer network, that provided feedback on customer praise and criticism
Management and Labor working together

Now for the Mini, it was just too small, underpowered and underoptioned for US Market

paying extra for a heater and rolldown windows was accepted in the US in 1938, but not 1968

The Japanese didn't sent their tiny cars over, knowing from experience that it wasn't a good fit for the US market

Even the likes of Dick Etheridge concede that had the likes of Joe Edwards succeeded Leonard Lord at BMC that the company would have been in a better position regarding labour relations. model policy and rationalisation, etc as mentioned in pages 148-149 in Walking in the Shadow of a Political Agitator – Book 1 Apprentice by Richard Etheridge. However ITTL the changes would not happen randomly but be the results of the butterflied PODs between 1870-1945 as well as the UK being influenced by the likes of Frederick Winslow Taylor and William E Deming. Stanley Markland meanwhile heading Leyland in place of Donald Stokes.

The onus is indeed on ATL Morris later BMC to further build upon the success of the Minor and other model, recall reading accounts of US dealers demands going unheeded which would not be the case ITTL.

At best on the subject of the ATL Mini, it might have established a small niche in North America (as opposed to being something ideally suited for the US) had the 1275cc engine been available from the outset and enlarged to 1380cc early on (sales did pick up with the 1275 engined Minis in the US as opposed to the earlier smaller engined models). An 84-inch wheelbase would have allowed for 4-door saloon (both two-box and three-box) as well as 5-door hatchback variants to slightly help matters, while a Vanden Plas Mini variant in the manner of an in-house Radford and Wood & Pickett would have resolved the lack the options at a price.

Otherwise the ATL domestic British Big Two would look to export C Segment to D/E Segment cars in the US rather than the ATL Mini and Imp, the likes of the OTL Marina and Allegro being butterflied away ITTL. In the case of the ATL US-based BMC Jeeps it is likely they would later be utilized for ATL Rovers, Land / Range Rovers and MGs.

Honda did sell the N600 in the United States from 1969-1972 prior to the mk1 Honda Civic, seem to recall other Japanese carmakers selling their smaller cars for a short time though to be fair they were smaller than the Mini and of similar size to the sub-Mini Fiat 500.
 
Triumph-Rootes should focus on larger cars
Germany didn‘t had fourth mass brand
Strandard-Rootes launched a C-segment Hillman(1.2L SC4 Enigne 、Unibody) in 1959
A clear-paper OHC engine family launched in 1964,replaced all the Strandard-Rootes engine
1250、1500 for C-segment,1500、1750 for D-segment,and a 2.6L L6
The Jaguar V12 should start at 6.4L,and derived DOHC 3.6L slant6
 
Jaguar-Triumph could have easily opted to not go below the C segment by deciding to leave the ATL Imp without a successor, Rootes under Chrysler in OTL thought the same by looking to position the Avenger Liftback (R424) as a B segment car to indirectly replace the Imp despite being better suited as a C segment hatchback (prior to later becoming the Chrysler Sunbeam) though that was in the context of the Imp’s lack of success and problems IOTL whereas sales for the ATL Imp would be around half to roughly comparable with the Simca 1000 (say about 1.2-2 million) by time it is replaced ITTL instead of achieving under half a million or 440 thousand (half of it achieved within the first 3 years of production).

That said have the 1970s fuel crises in mind for the company to at least investigate whether to remain in the B Segment ITTL and position such offering as a more premium-ish supermini under the Triumph Torch name compared to rivals similar to the OTL Audi 50 in some respects yet better executed (and minus the related Volkswagen Polo).

Whoever does end up taking over Borgward ITTL would use it for an increased presence on the continent rather than simply producing Borgward badged models (unless as a stop-gap measure if required), it is possible the ATL domestic UK Big Two would be better served elsewhere with regards to an increased European presence.

Envision the merger/takeover of Rootes and Jaguar by Leyland happening around 1966 that like the earlier formation of BMC was sealed with an unconditional cash injection by the government ITTL, the constituent parts of ATL Leyland aka Jaguar-Triumph would be in a significantly better position beforehand compared to OTL (via the aftermath of the butterfly-netted PODs for the UK from 1870-1945).

A 6.4-litre version of the Jaguar V12 would reach production (DOHC being useful) along with a 6-cylinder of some form, its development trajectory though would be different as a result of more modern production tooling/etc being used. Ideally though ATL Jaguar-Triumph would have made use of the R & D that had gone into the Jaguar V12 as a starting point for a range of inline-4s, V6s, etc designed for comparatively higher-volume production (as opposed to mass production).
 
Last edited:
To my surprise, you are well aware that the timing of OTL BL was not good because the companies have just invested heavily
But your ATL is still putting the merger after a big investment. Why not a few years in advance?

Imp、Triumph2000、Hunter、1300
4 new models were launched and two new engines were developed
For Rootes-Strandard a 1250-2600 4/6 Cylinder OHC engine family can use at least 20 years
And can partner very well with Jaguar's Slant6 / V12 engine family

In addition, I'm not sure Jaguar needs a V8 after they had V12
maybe there is a big gap between slant6 and V12, but there is not enough market
The 3.6L slant6 could match BMW's largest engine
Mercedes didn't sell a lot of V8 either
V12 has a lot of capacity and should not be wasted
 
Last edited:
Jaguar-Triumph could have easily opted to not go below the C segment by deciding to leave the ATL Imp without a successor, Rootes under Chrysler in OTL thought the same by looking to position the Avenger Liftback (R424) as a B segment car to indirectly replace the Imp despite being better suited as a C segment hatchback (prior to later becoming the Chrysler Sunbeam) though that was in the context of the Imp’s lack of success and problems IOTL whereas sales for the ATL Imp would be around half to roughly comparable with the Simca 1000 (say about 1.2-2 million) by time it is replaced ITTL instead of achieving under half a million or 440 thousand (half of it achieved within the first 3 years of production).

That said have the 1970s fuel crises in mind for the company to at least investigate whether to remain in the B Segment ITTL and position such offering as a more premium-ish supermini under the Triumph Torch name compared to rivals similar to the OTL Audi 50 in some respects yet better executed (and minus the related Volkswagen Polo).

Whoever does end up taking over Borgward ITTL would use it for an increased presence on the continent rather than simply producing Borgward badged models (unless as a stop-gap measure if required), it is possible the ATL domestic UK Big Two would be better served elsewhere with regards to an increased European presence.

Envision the merger/takeover of Rootes and Jaguar by Leyland happening around 1966 that like the earlier formation of BMC was sealed with an unconditional cash injection by the government ITTL, the constituent parts of ATL Leyland aka Jaguar-Triumph would be in a significantly better position beforehand compared to OTL (via the aftermath of the butterfly-netted PODs for the UK from 1870-1945).

A 6.4-litre version of the Jaguar V12 would reach production (DOHC being useful) along with a 6-cylinder of some form, its development trajectory though would be different as a result of more modern production tooling/etc being used. Ideally though ATL Jaguar-Triumph would have made use of the R & D that had gone into the Jaguar V12 as a starting point for a range of inline-4s, V6s, etc designed for comparatively higher-volume production (as opposed to mass production).
Neither Strandrd nor roots has the ability to acquire borgward, which was about the same size as borgward
Bogward's situation is not optimistic, they produce less than 100000 per year, with 5models and 3 brands
In order to save bergwald, we need epoch making products, such as Mini and Ado16 made in German
If you really want Leyland to own the Rootes-Triumph-Jaguar
You should first merge Strand and Roots,Then, in 1961, Leyland bought Strandard-Roots.
Both Strandard and Roots are in trouble that year, so strandard roots will also have difficulties
 

marathag

Banned
tying rocks together and expecting them to float when tossed in the river is wishful thinking
companies were failing for many reasons, merging two disparate systems together just rarely works, except by limiting competition, that has it's own pitfalls attached
 
To my surprise, you are well aware that the timing of OTL BL was not good because the companies have just invested heavily
But your ATL is still putting the merger after a big investment. Why not a few years in advance?

There are compromises either way on whether Standard-Triumph and Rootes merge in the 1950s or in the 1960s with Triumph under Leyland taking over Rootes in ATL, it comes down on which route is preferable.

In the case of the case of the latter it is premised on ATL Rootes Group's expansion with the Imp not being disrupted with strikes, with the car being built nearby at Ryton as originally envisaged instead of Linwood in Scotland and receiving an extra year's worth of development amongst other things (with a possible earlier introduction) and thus butterflying away the car's OTL problems for the company to justify further development with larger tall-block 998-1150cc+ (up to 1268cc) engines, semi-automatic, Asp, Microbus and other variants including a 4-door saloon.

One can dismiss the Imp as folly in retrospect though fascinated more by what the car could have become without its OTL problems and obstacles underminding the car's success. One can only speculate whether its ATL success would be comparable with the ATL Mini over the course of the 1960s to early-1970s, though it would have likely fared much better ITTL compared to OTL.

OTOH Leyland would benefit from the successful expansion at Rootes in ATL upon the merger/takeover in around 1966, the issues regarding the planned engines each constituent company was developing for the 1970s was not completely insurmountable though requires some creative thinking that could serve as vehicles to help integrate Rootes, Triumph and Jaguar into ATL Jaguar-Triumph.

The goal on the engine front for ATL Jaguar-Triumph would be analogues of the Triumph-influenced Rover K-Series and an ATL Jaguar AJ28 modular family (of which only the AJ V8 appeared in OTL) being introduced from the 1980s onwards to keep things relatively grounded to ITTL (and as a challenge), prefer to NOT go down the clean sheet engine design route as that is too simple a solution as opposed different development trajectories of OTL engines (where most of their potential is realized).

ATL Triumph for example could repurpose the OTL C segment Avenger, clothed it with Michelotti styling and make it into its own ITTL with carry over from the ATL Ajax (RWD from outset), Bobcat (aka SD2 precursor - related to Bullet/Lynx) and others, similar to what Nissan did with the Prince Motor Company developed Nissan Cherry E10 upon taking the latter over in 1966.

Neither Strandrd nor roots has the ability to acquire borgward, which was about the same size as borgward
Bogward's situation is not optimistic, they produce less than 100000 per year, with 5models and 3 brands
In order to save bergwald, we need epoch making products, such as Mini and Ado16 made in German
If you really want Leyland to own the Rootes-Triumph-Jaguar
You should first merge Strand and Roots,Then, in 1961, Leyland bought Strandard-Roots.
Both Strandard and Roots are in trouble that year, so strandard roots will also have difficulties

Only mentioned ATL Leyland as a very unlikely possibility to acquire Borgward in admittingly very contrived circumstances, though with early UK EEC entry in 1963 it is more likely Leyland aka Jaguar-Triumph from 1966 to seek acquiring both the automotive and commercial divisions of DAF. Leaving only ATL BMC as one possible candidate to take over Borgward.
 
Last edited:
There are compromises either way on whether Standard-Triumph and Rootes merge in the 1950s or in the 1960s with Triumph under Leyland taking over Rootes in ATL, it comes down on which route is preferable.

In the case of the case of the latter it is premised on ATL Rootes Group's expansion with the Imp not being disrupted with strikes, with the car being built nearby at Ryton as originally envisaged instead of Linwood in Scotland and receiving an extra year's worth of development amongst other things (with a possible earlier introduction) and thus butterflying away the car's OTL problems for the company to justify further development with larger tall-block 998-1150cc+ (up to 1268cc) engines, semi-automatic, Asp, Microbus and other variants including a 4-door saloon.

One can dismiss the Imp as folly in retrospect though fascinated more by what the car could have become without its OTL problems and obstacles underminding the car's success. One can only speculate whether its ATL success would be comparable with the ATL Mini over the course of the 1960s to early-1970s, though it would have likely fared much better ITTL compared to OTL.

OTOH Leyland would benefit from the successful expansion at Rootes in ATL upon the merger/takeover in around 1966, the issues regarding the planned engines each constituent company was developing for the 1970s was not completely insurmountable though requires some creative thinking that could serve as vehicles to help integrate Rootes, Triumph and Jaguar into ATL Jaguar-Triumph.

The goal on the engine front for ATL Jaguar-Triumph would be analogues of the Triumph-influenced Rover K-Series and an ATL Jaguar AJ28 modular family (of which only the AJ V8 appeared in OTL) being introduced from the 1980s onwards to keep things relatively grounded to ITTL (and as a challenge), prefer to NOT go down the clean sheet engine design route as that is too simple a solution as opposed different development trajectories of OTL engines (where most of their potential is realized).

ATL Triumph for example could repurpose the OTL C segment Avenger, clothed it with Michelotti styling and make it into its own ITTL with carry over from the ATL Ajax (RWD from outset), Bobcat (aka SD2 precursor - related to Bullet/Lynx) and others, similar to what Nissan did with the Prince Motor Company developed Nissan Cherry E10 upon taking the latter over in 1966.



Only mentioned ATL Leyland as a very unlikely possibility to acquire Borgward in admittingly very contrived circumstances, though with early UK EEC entry in 1963 it is more likely Leyland aka Jaguar-Triumph from 1966 to seek acquiring both the automotive and commercial divisions of DAF. Leaving only ATL BMC as one possible candidate to take over Borgward.
The question is, Why did Rootes willing to be acquired by Leyland since he has successfully expanded?
Also for the Asutin-Morris
You can't assume that all companies are successful and have no problems,but they just want to be merged
 
The question is, Why did Rootes willing to be acquired by Leyland since he has successfully expanded?
Also for the Asutin-Morris
You can't assume that all companies are successful and have no problems,but they just want to be merged
In the case of Leyland taking over Rootes, the former was considered as a possible domestic alternative by the government in place of interest from Chrysler.

Leyland themselves for better or worse had ambitions to produce cars under their own name beyond Triumph, a debt free expanded ATL Rootes Group being a tempting target with its smaller size (relative to OTL BMC) making it far easier for Leyland to swallow. However ATL Leyland upon the takeover of Rootes would also recognize their best bet is to focus on Triumph and Jaguar instead of producing Rootes cars under the Leyland badge.

As for Austin and Morris, there were one or two previous post-war attempts to establish a merger before the formation of BMC. William Morris was losing interest in the car business in the post-war period with both him and Leonard Lord recognizing the need to merge in order to survive against the Big Three.

The only difference in ATL is that Morris would have modernized to a similar extent as Austin under Leonard Lord (whether not sabotaging Mile Thomas's post-war plans or even pre-war PODs) prior to the formation of BMC, instead of neglecting and under-investing in Morris. Something that would continue at BMC and later on come back to haunt the company in OTL.
 

marathag

Banned
One way, have Austin 'merge' with Morris in the same way as Daimler merged with Chrysler

Morris, as part of Nuffield Organization, is taking the secondary position in BMC, gets the Austin tech for free, and improved processes.
BMC loses money, doesn't really get anything from the mergers except a seemingly endless moneypit to toss Pounds at.

They kick most of the NO out, keeping MG and Riley, losing money in the process.

Morris is alone again, and get a pile of government money to keep going as a manufacturer, and use this for a new large factory at Abingdon, closing Birmingham
They are now meaner, leaner, and have some good tech left over from the merger, and a focus on Morris cars, Wolseley are now a trim level of Morris(but using their engines, replacing the Morris engine line for autos), along with Morris Trucks and Nuffield Tractors
 
One way, have Austin 'merge' with Morris in the same way as Daimler merged with Chrysler

Morris, as part of Nuffield Organization, is taking the secondary position in BMC, gets the Austin tech for free, and improved processes.
BMC loses money, doesn't really get anything from the mergers except a seemingly endless moneypit to toss Pounds at.

They kick most of the NO out, keeping MG and Riley, losing money in the process.

Morris is alone again, and get a pile of government money to keep going as a manufacturer, and use this for a new large factory at Abingdon, closing Birmingham
They are now meaner, leaner, and have some good tech left over from the merger, and a focus on Morris cars, Wolseley are now a trim level of Morris(but using their engines, replacing the Morris engine line for autos), along with Morris Trucks and Nuffield Tractors
Who would head this company as William Morris in OTL was looking interest in the car business post-war, while have read accounts that Miles Thomas and Leonard Lord hated each other (IIRC from Martyn Nutland who wrote the Brick by Brick book on Leonard Lord).
 
Last edited:

marathag

Banned
Who would head this company as William Morris in OTL was looking interest in the car business post-war, while have read accounts that Miles Thomas and Leonard Lord hated each other (IIRC from Martyn Nutland who wrote the Brick by Brick book on Leonard Lord).
A car accident for either of them, I think, or a stroke or anything that keeps them apart
 
You could also, if you're going for external PODs (which you basically need for something like this), not just make the British car companies better, but have their continental rivals be worse. That might give them more of an opening.
 
Top