Automotive AHC/WI – Improve Willy-Overland’s Car Production Prospects

[Masked Grizzly]

The following article posits Willys could have better fought the imports than what U.S. automakers ended up producing IOTL and helped change the US auto industry’s dismissive attitude about entry-level compacts had the automaker continued to build passenger cars in the early-post-war years more along the lines of a direct replacement for the Willys 77 / Americar instead belatedly with the Willys Aero. - https://www.indieauto.org/2021/01/22/1933-42-willys-offered-a-better-template-for-an-import-beater/

Willys also developed the 213.3 CID (3495cc) inline-6 Model 99 prototype that never reached production, which was to be sold alongside the Willys 77. - https://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/a-willys-that-never-was-the-1933-model-99/

Based on the limited information available it would appear both the 77 and 99 engines were a development of the Whippet, which in turn evolved into the Go Devil and Hurricane 4/6-cylinder engines. However Mitsubishi demonstrated there was scope for further improvement of the 4/6-cylinder engines after they converted it to OHVs and diesel for their licensed-built version of the Jeep as well as a number of light to medium-weight trucks and buses.

While Willys would have inevitably been swallowed up by another carmaker as was the case IOTL, this ATL Willys might have had a bigger impact and helped speed up Detroit’s transformation if it returned to passenger-cars once the war ended. The tiny automaker might have gained at least some competitive advantage — and thus more staying power — for being the first to offer a post-war compact. And if Willys stuck with a smaller compact that offered a four-cylinder engine and a full range of body styles and models, that could have begun to legitimize the genre in the 1950s rather than two decades later.

 

[marathag]

While Willys would have inevitably been swallowed up by another carmaker as was the case IOTL, this ATL Willys might have had a bigger impact and helped speed up Detroit’s transformation if it returned to passenger-cars once the war ended. The tiny automaker might have gained at least some competitive advantage — and thus more staying power — for being the first to offer a post-war compact. And if Willys stuck with a smaller compact that offered a four-cylinder engine and a full range of body styles and models, that could have begun to legitimize the genre in the 1950s rather than two decades later.

but they needed an engine with the power of a six, at least, when everyone(except Plymouth, the most 'Economy' Make of the Big Three offered sizes and Eights.

Skip the F-Head, and go for full OHV conversion of the Go Devil, and go out to a Six, like Mitsubishi did
3.25" bore 3.5" Stroke are within easy limits of that block. That's 175 cu. inch, or 2.8l right off the bat in 1947, and then more bore and stroke later, rather than waiting til 1950 for the 148cu. inch 2.4l six of the 'Lightning' Motor
That gives them a 120hp engine in 1947, rather than a 60hp four, that was only 48hp before the war, and put that in the Jeep, as well as the Jeep Wagon.
Have that with the optional six, as well as full 4WD from the start

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Skip the F-Head, and go for full OHV conversion of the Go Devil, and go out to a Six, like Mitsubishi did

Agreed on Willys needing to opt for a full OHV conversion of the Go Devil/Lighting later Hurricane engines ITTL, OHV versions of the pre-Go Devil/Lightning 4-cylinder in the 77/Americar and 6-cylinder in an ATL production version of the 99 prototype would have also been ideal for the pre-war period though F-Head / IOE would have probably sufficed at most (the 6-cylinder Hurricane IOTL was able to put out 130-140 hp in the Willys Aero - which would suggest an equivalent 4-cylinder capable of up to 86-93 hp).

What Mitsubishi managed to achieve with the OHV diesel conversion IOTL would have also been valuable to Jeep earlier on in place of Perkins and other outside diesel engines. From the looks of it the displacement ranges for both the Willys 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder engines would appear to be 1760-2380cc and 2432-3495cc respectively.

What Willys needed in ATL was a more sophisticated equivalent of the crude Henry J in terms of size and weight since it most closely approximated the pre-war Willys 77 / Americar, whilst also featuring both 4/6-cylinder OHV engines and a significantly broader range of bodystyles compared to the Henry J.

That in turn allows a larger ATL Willys Aero to be re-positioned as an 6-cylinder OHV (Lightning/Hurricane) and 8-cylinder powered car, the latter via a fully developed production version of the 288-327 Kaiser-Frazer V8 engine.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

One of a few 4-cylinder OHV engines during that period which was putting out about 120 hp was the 2290cc Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire 234, that engine (aside being capable of reaching 150-180 hp) however was essentially a 4-cylinder version of the 6-cylinder Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire 346 whose roots were a OHV redesign of a W.O. Bentley developed Twin-Cam 6-cylinder engine when he was at Armstrong-Siddeley (basically being a Chinese copy of the Lagonda Straight-6 used at Aston Martin and itself redesigned by Tadek Marek).

Other 4-cylinder OHV engines that come to mind include the Austin A70, Austin A90 Atlantic and the Austin-Healey 100 whose outputs range from 67-130 hp 2.2-2.6-litres.

Would say it is possible for Willys to develop a 4-cylinder OHV with a competitive power output to take on most rival inline-6 engines of that period that were, 120 hp or more would be more the preserve of higher performance 4-cylinder variants yet something in the region of 80-110 hp or so would be just enough for an ATL Willys 4-cylinder OHV to cover most rivals inline-6 engines at that time (IIRC the more potent US OHV inline-6s until the 1970s IOTL were putting out up to 166-171 hp at most).

Thereafter the ATL Willys 6-cylinder OHV would be utilized to slot above the ATL Willys 4-cylinder OHV take on the more potent 6-cylinder OHV engines rivals were building at the time (bearing in mind the OTL Hurricane 6-cylinder IOE was reaching 130-140 hp in 2.6-3.0-litre forms). Either way Willys ITTL now have a 4/6-cylinder OHV engine with increased potential longevity compared to OTL, that it could actually survive in the event Willys is still taken over by AMC.

 

[phx1138]

Putting the Willys 99 in production right after WW2 might have been a good idea, given public willingness to buy just about anything. Better would be having the *Aero in production for a '47 model year. Designing the *Aero would have had to begin in wartime, when it would have been illegal to do in-house, & would have required a lot of W-O foresight.

In ref the six, there's room for something like the Ardun hemi &/or Roof (?) dual-plug conversions, which could make for a very potent small car indeed. 😎😎 Even if it was a bit dated, putting a hemi six in the Americar would make it pretty quick--& it could be cheaper than other equally dated Fords & Chevys.

Given the *Aero happens in '47 or '48, it's going to attract a lot of attention & sales as one of very few all-new cars on sale. The OHV L6 standard from the start would have given it a technological edge that would help. If it can survive the Ford-GM oligopoly & "Ford blitz" of '53-4, the *Aero would be well-positioned to replace OTL's Rambler. That suggests it could be very successful in & after the '58 recession (if it still happens TTL). I also think having a genuine pickup would be good; giving it a 4x4 option, using Jeep mechanicals, would make it unusual for the era (AIUI), but would be valuable, & profitable.

I can't resist suggesting turning an *Aero into the first muscle car, with something like a 327ci V8, around 1953-5. I'd also hope for a mildly-reskinned *Aero as response to (anticipation of?) the 'vette &/or T-bird, before '57: a two-door & two-door 'vert. Make it 2-seat only? Or (better-selling) 4/5-seat? (A 4-door 'vert?) And maybe the same for the 'stang, before '64. The goal is to use the *Aero's basic structure, avoiding the need for whole-new doors & such, & whole new factory to build them (which cost cut deeply into the profits for the 'stang, T-bird, 'cuda, & Challenger); instead, I'd go the direction of the Goat or Duster--trim package, engine & trans options, scooped hood, trunklid wings, & such. I can't imagine never offering a "big block" option, but focusing on the inline six & small V8 could keep them alive into the '70s, when the Oil Shock would offer a golden opportunity for a company dedicated to smaller cars & engines...

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Putting the Willys 99 in production right after WW2 might have been a good idea, given public willingness to buy just about anything. Better would be having the *Aero in production for a '47 model year. Designing the *Aero would have had to begin in wartime, when it would have been illegal to do in-house, & would have required a lot of W-O foresight.

It is a possibility yet surely there was a feasible way for the Willys 99 to be produced alongside the Willys 77 / Americar as well as form the basis of an immediate post-war Aero ITTL?

In ref the six, there's room for something like the Ardun hemi &/or Roof (?) dual-plug conversions, which could make for a very potent small car indeed. 😎😎 Even if it was a bit dated, putting a hemi six in the Americar would make it pretty quick--& it could be cheaper than other equally dated Fords & Chevys.

Are there any historical examples of the 77 and 99 4/6-cylinder later Go Devil/Lightning and Hurricane engines being equipped with Hemi heads? An early switch to OHV would have given the Willys engines more longevity in the post-war era, combined with an ATL production version of the 288-327 Kaiser V8 (that also potentially forms the basis of a 90-degree V6 to both replace the ATL Hurricane OHV 6-cylinder as well as possibly in place of the OTL Buick V6).

Question how long an ATL Willys that still produces cars would be able to hold out for before it becomes part of AMC ITTL. The former would provide a Sub-Rambler / Rambler American model in the ATL Americar plus a Hurricane OHV 4-cylinder engine (as a stop-gap for an early ATL AMC Straight-4 being fast tracked into production), thereby allowing AMC to better take on the imports and later domestic compacts/subcompacts.

 

[phx1138]

It is a possibility yet surely there was a feasible way for the Willys 99 to be produced alongside the Willys 77 / Americar as well as form the basis of an immediate post-war Aero ITTL?

My thinking wasn't the 99 instead of the Americar, but along with. (You'd probably end up with a hybrid 99/Americar, with the 99's "center section" & Americar-adapted fenders, because the 99's styling, as designed, would be too dated to sell.)

I can picture the Americar alongside a later *Aero, too, & I'd assume, in that event, the *Aero replaces the 99--or supplants both the 99 & Americar, depending on how big it turns out to be. (I'd be aiming for smaller, even allowing it's designed to accept the inline 6, & I'd consider that mandatory.)

My thinking is, the earlier you can get an outside contractor (like Darrin) started on the design of the *Aero, the sooner it enters production & the bigger advantage you get over the postwar Fords & Chevys, which merely minor updates of the '41-2s, except (IIRC) the '47 Nash, which was the first slab-side. It takes Ford til '49 to do the same, & giving W-O a 3yr edge would be huge for them. (They'd still face stiff competition from Ford's flatty in the '49s, tho, whence the *Ardun Willys.)

Are there any historical examples of the 77 and 99 4/6-cylinder later Go Devil/Lightning and Hurricane engines being equipped with Hemi heads? An early switch to OHV would have given the Willys engines more longevity in the post-war era, combined with an ATL production version of the 288-327 Kaiser V8 (that also potentially forms the basis of a 90-degree V6 to both replace the ATL Hurricane OHV 6-cylinder as well as possibly in place of the OTL Buick V6).

AFAIK, nobody ever built a hemi Willys. There were a lot of experiments around the Ford flathead, & the 201 inline four; how much of that was because the Model T & the Deuce were so common, I'm not sure. That might be why there's not a lot of Willys gear in the aftermarket. My proposition is, if it can be done for the Ford, there's no reason it can't be for the Willys--& carmakers have lots more resources to apply to doing it than hot rodders (which is where the Ardun & Roof heads, Hilborn FI, & Edelbrock intakes all came from).

Question how long an ATL Willys that still produces cars would be able to hold out for before it becomes part of AMC ITTL. The former would provide a Sub-Rambler / Rambler American model in the ATL Americar plus a Hurricane OHV 4-cylinder engine (as a stop-gap for an early ATL AMC Straight-4 being fast tracked into production), thereby allowing AMC to better take on the imports and later domestic compacts/subcompacts.

I have no particular problem with a surviving Willys becoming a founding part of AMC. If W-O takes the part of Rambler OTL (more/less), & AMC happens around '55 (maybe sooner), with a Stude-Packard-Willys merger, I'd be fine with that. (I'd sooner see Packard survive alone, but that's probably not too likely.)

My big concern with a merger is saddling the company with lousy management, too many platforms, & too much debt.

I also fear the merger would prevent W-O from getting the cool stuff I'm imagining. If it turns out *AMC builds a two-seater Packard answer to the Thunderbird, while W-O gets a (similar) four-seater, OTOH, I'd be fine with that.

Edit:
What are the chances of W-O adopting FWD? Say, either adapting Jeep mechanicals, or after close examination of a Traction Avant. The idea is to make a smaller car more attractive, by having more interior room, & making it possible to sell at a premium based on technical sophistication.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

My thinking wasn't the 99 instead of the Americar, but along with. (You'd probably end up with a hybrid 99/Americar, with the 99's "center section" & Americar-adapted fenders, because the 99's styling, as designed, would be too dated to sell.)

I can picture the Americar alongside a later *Aero, too, & I'd assume, in that event, the *Aero replaces the 99--or supplants both the 99 & Americar, depending on how big it turns out to be. (I'd be aiming for smaller, even allowing it's designed to accept the inline 6, & I'd consider that mandatory.)

My thinking is, the earlier you can get an outside contractor (like Darrin) started on the design of the *Aero, the sooner it enters production & the bigger advantage you get over the postwar Fords & Chevys, which merely minor updates of the '41-2s, except (IIRC) the '47 Nash, which was the first slab-side. It takes Ford til '49 to do the same, & giving W-O a 3yr edge would be huge for them. (They'd still face stiff competition from Ford's flatty in the '49s, tho, whence the *Ardun Willys.)

Largely agree. The goal for Willys-Overland in ATL would be to lay the ground for it to have two car range both pre-war and post-war with the 77/Americar and 99/Aero, the former being powered by 4-cylinder OHV engines and the latter powered by 6-cylinder later 6-cylinder / V8 OHV engines (the latter by way of Willys gaining use of a production 288-327 Kaiser V8).

I have no particular problem with a surviving Willys becoming a founding part of AMC. If W-O takes the part of Rambler OTL (more/less), & AMC happens around '55 (maybe sooner), with a Stude-Packard-Willys merger, I'd be fine with that. (I'd sooner see Packard survive alone, but that's probably not too likely.)

My big concern with a merger is saddling the company with lousy management, too many platforms, & too much debt.

I also fear the merger would prevent W-O from getting the cool stuff I'm imagining. If it turns out *AMC builds a two-seater Packard answer to the Thunderbird, while W-O gets a (similar) four-seater, OTOH, I'd be fine with that.

Have explored one possible scenario for Studebaker-Packard and their precursors to be thriving concerns by the time they merge in that TL, yet in the absence of realistic ways to wank Packard the result in ATL would appear to be it and NOT Studebaker being much the weaker link of the two.

ATL Studebaker would have at its disposal:

- An ATL Studebaker V8 significantly lighter and more compact in the manner of the SBC V8, such an engine would be a much better starting point for not only a Studebaker analogue of the SBC V8-derived GM 90-degree, but also form a better starting point for a 90-degree V12 as opposed to the OTL post-war Packard V8-derived 90-degree V12 project.

- Another would be early (ideally pre-war or immediate post-war) OHV conversion of the Studebaker Champion Six into a properly developed Skybolt Six with increased displacement to 3298cc, the same with converting the Studebaker Commander Six to OHV before the latter is superseded by the ATL SBC-like Studebaker V8.

- Among the independents Studebaker had the only passenger-car platform flexible enough to be used for both a larger and a compact car. -

1951 Studebaker: Pointing in the wrong direction - Indie Auto

1951 Studebaker: Pointing in the wrong direction - Fake Design Indie Auto

www.indieauto.org

Taken together the ATL Studebaker V8-based family of engines would have been a great asset to both AMC and Jeep, with the addition of the Studebaker and Packard marques to AMC potentially allowing this ATL automotive combine to attempt a move upmarket to a Euro-inspired premium carmaker.

To that effect the engine range would likely be rationalised down to the ATL 4/6-cylinder Hurricane OHV and SBC V8 inspired Studebaker V8 family (plus 90-degree V6/V12), with the 288-327 Kaiser V8 and AMC V8 being discontinued or in the case of the AMC V8 butterflied away completely (if a thriving ATL Studebaker-Packard joins AMC). The ATL 4/6-cylinder Hurricane OHV would either be replaced by an ATL 1964 AMC Straight 4/6 engine or one to two other alternatives.

Based on the following Curbside Classics article there was an opportunity for AMC to acquire Kaiser-Jeep in 1960, however am intrigued by Romney's idea for a merger or failing that a partnership / alliance among both the independents as well as with another carmaker outside of the US.

Cannot see a thriving ATL AMC automotive combine being in a position to develop a FWD platform on its own, that is where Kaiser-Jeeps OTL ties with Renault* (French link) comes into play in ITTL by way of an early/mid-1960s ATL AMC acquiring Willys-Jeep (OTL Kaiser-Jeep) as a vehicle for AMC to enter into a more equal partnership / alliance with Renault to help fill the void at the lower end of the range compared to OTL.

Consider the following:

- Kaiser Jeep/Renault Model H Prototype, 1965. A project to create a lightweight 2 and 4 wheel drive utilitarian vehicle based on the Renault 16 with unitary construction (which Jeep didn’t use until 1984). The programme was abandoned .

https://carsthatnevermadeitetc.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F141274417718

However am envisioning a scenario where an ATL AMC's (plus thriving Studebaker-Packard and Jeep) ties to Renault would allow it to gain an earlier role in the development of the Renault 12 to put its own stamp on a US version (akin to the Renault 12-based Brazilian Ford Corcel/Corcel II/Del Rey/Pampa and Dacia 1300) as an AMC Americar III (or IV).

Which would form the basis for not only a Renault-based US-built analogue to the Brazilian built Volkswagen Gol/Fox (whose BX platform was derived from the Audi 80/VW Passat B1 (as well as the B2) and preceded by the VW EA276 prototype) but also a US developed equivalent of the Renault 12/Dacia 1300-based ARO 10 / Dacia Duster as a more viable basis for a Jeep compared to the OTL Renault 16-based Kaiser-Jeep/Renault Model H Prototype.

Curiously the OTL Audi 80/VW Passat B1-based Brazilian VW Gol/Fox would itself form the basis of the the VW Polo-sized Brazilian developed VW BY Project. (Portuguese link - https://autoesporte.globo.com/carro...-nunca-saiu-da-fabrica-e-foi-abandonado.ghtml)

- An earlier involvement with Renault would also allow ATL AMC to gain use of the Renault A-Type engine which was originally conceived as an inline-6 for the front-engined RWD Renault Project 114 which preceded the Renault 16 (with the inline-6 becoming the A-Type 4-cylinder), another project that would have been useful for AMC (especially if clothed in Pininfarina styling akin to the OTL Rambler American-based Renault/IKA Torino).

Displacements considered for the A-Type 4-cylinder that did not reach production range from 1300cc up to 1862cc in motorsport Alpines, which equates to a potential inline-6 displacing around 2000cc to 2793cc.

- Other AMC involvements with Renault include the 2.0-2.2 Douvrin / J-Type engine (in place of the VW EA831 engine AMC used in OTL), along with the PRV V6 and PRV V8 as well as the Renault C-Type based petrol/ethanol powered Ford CHT engines.

- Another alternative to a shortened Renault 12-based VW Gol/Fox analogue would be to get involved in the related Peugeot 104 B-Segment / Renault 14 C-Segment project, however the unusual gearbox arrangement of the latter would likely make the former (as it is already based on the ATL AMC version of the Renault 12) both a cheaper and safer bet for ATL AMC.

- And lastly given ATL AMC's potential ambitions to move upmarket, one idea would be to get involved with the Renault/Peugeot Project H joint-venture, especially since AMC would likely stand to benefit from said alliances and joint-ventures as a byproduct of its ties with Renault even if AMC itself would have little use for the PRV V6/V8 due to its ATL SBC V8-inspired Studebaker V6/V8/V12 family of engines. - https://driventowrite.com/2020/10/27/a-failure-of-nerve-renault-peugeot-projet-h/

 

[marathag]

What are the chances of W-O adopting FWD? Say, either adapting Jeep mechanicals, or after close examination of a Traction Avant. The idea is to make a smaller car more attractive, by having more interior room, & making it possible to sell at a premium based on technical sophistication.

Auburn did FWD, but that setup was a mess.
Slightly larger Willys Auto platform(as wide as the 99, but 77 length), and Transverse mount the Go-Devil

Art of Willys 99 chassis

 

[phx1138]

Largely agree. The goal for Willys-Overland in ATL would be to lay the ground for it to have two car range both pre-war and post-war with the 77/Americar and 99/Aero, the former being powered by 4-cylinder OHV engines and the latter powered by 6-cylinder later 6-cylinder / V8 OHV engines (the latter by way of Willys gaining use of a production 288-327 Kaiser V8).



Have explored one possible scenario for Studebaker-Packard and their precursors to be thriving concerns by the time they merge in that TL, yet in the absence of realistic ways to wank Packard the result in ATL would appear to be it and NOT Studebaker being much the weaker link of the two.

ATL Studebaker would have at its disposal:

- An ATL Studebaker V8 significantly lighter and more compact in the manner of the SBC V8, such an engine would be a much better starting point for not only a Studebaker analogue of the SBC V8-derived GM 90-degree, but also form a better starting point for a 90-degree V12 as opposed to the OTL post-war Packard V8-derived 90-degree V12 project.

- Another would be early (ideally pre-war or immediate post-war) OHV conversion of the Studebaker Champion Six into a properly developed Skybolt Six with increased displacement to 3298cc, the same with converting the Studebaker Commander Six to OHV before the latter is superseded by the ATL SBC-like Studebaker V8.

- Among the independents Studebaker had the only passenger-car platform flexible enough to be used for both a larger and a compact car. -

1951 Studebaker: Pointing in the wrong direction - Indie Auto

1951 Studebaker: Pointing in the wrong direction - Fake Design Indie Auto

www.indieauto.org

Taken together the ATL Studebaker V8-based family of engines would have been a great asset to both AMC and Jeep, with the addition of the Studebaker and Packard marques to AMC potentially allowing this ATL automotive combine to attempt a move upmarket to a Euro-inspired premium carmaker.

To that effect the engine range would likely be rationalised down to the ATL 4/6-cylinder Hurricane OHV and SBC V8 inspired Studebaker V8 family (plus 90-degree V6/V12), with the 288-327 Kaiser V8 and AMC V8 being discontinued or in the case of the AMC V8 butterflied away completely (if a thriving ATL Studebaker-Packard joins AMC). The ATL 4/6-cylinder Hurricane OHV would either be replaced by an ATL 1964 AMC Straight 4/6 engine or one to two other alternatives.

Based on the following Curbside Classics article there was an opportunity for AMC to acquire Kaiser-Jeep in 1960, however am intrigued by Romney's idea for a merger or failing that a partnership / alliance among both the independents as well as with another carmaker outside of the US.

Cannot see a thriving ATL AMC automotive combine being in a position to develop a FWD platform on its own, that is where Kaiser-Jeeps OTL ties with Renault* (French link) comes into play in ITTL by way of an early/mid-1960s ATL AMC acquiring Willys-Jeep (OTL Kaiser-Jeep) as a vehicle for AMC to enter into a more equal partnership / alliance with Renault to help fill the void at the lower end of the range compared to OTL.

Consider the following:

- Kaiser Jeep/Renault Model H Prototype, 1965. A project to create a lightweight 2 and 4 wheel drive utilitarian vehicle based on the Renault 16 with unitary construction (which Jeep didn’t use until 1984). The programme was abandoned .

https://carsthatnevermadeitetc.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F141274417718

However am envisioning a scenario where an ATL AMC's (plus thriving Studebaker-Packard and Jeep) ties to Renault would allow it to gain an earlier role in the development of the Renault 12 to put its own stamp on a US version (akin to the Renault 12-based Brazilian Ford Corcel/Corcel II/Del Rey/Pampa and Dacia 1300) as an AMC Americar III (or IV).

Which would form the basis for not only a Renault-based US-built analogue to the Brazilian built Volkswagen Gol/Fox (whose BX platform was derived from the Audi 80/VW Passat B1 (as well as the B2) and preceded by the VW EA276 prototype) but also a US developed equivalent of the Renault 12/Dacia 1300-based ARO 10 / Dacia Duster as a more viable basis for a Jeep compared to the OTL Renault 16-based Kaiser-Jeep/Renault Model H Prototype.

Curiously the OTL Audi 80/VW Passat B1-based Brazilian VW Gol/Fox would itself form the basis of the the VW Polo-sized Brazilian developed VW BY Project. (Portuguese link - https://autoesporte.globo.com/carro...-nunca-saiu-da-fabrica-e-foi-abandonado.ghtml)

- An earlier involvement with Renault would also allow ATL AMC to gain use of the Renault A-Type engine which was originally conceived as an inline-6 for the front-engined RWD Renault Project 114 which preceded the Renault 16 (with the inline-6 becoming the A-Type 4-cylinder), another project that would have been useful for AMC (especially if clothed in Pininfarina styling akin to the OTL Rambler American-based Renault/IKA Torino).

Displacements considered for the A-Type 4-cylinder that did not reach production range from 1300cc up to 1862cc in motorsport Alpines, which equates to a potential inline-6 displacing around 2000cc to 2793cc.

- Other AMC involvements with Renault include the 2.0-2.2 Douvrin / J-Type engine (in place of the VW EA831 engine AMC used in OTL), along with the PRV V6 and PRV V8 as well as the Renault C-Type based petrol/ethanol powered Ford CHT engines.

- Another alternative to a shortened Renault 12-based VW Gol/Fox analogue would be to get involved in the related Peugeot 104 B-Segment / Renault 14 C-Segment project, however the unusual gearbox arrangement of the latter would likely make the former (as it is already based on the ATL AMC version of the Renault 12) both a cheaper and safer bet for ATL AMC.

- And lastly given ATL AMC's potential ambitions to move upmarket, one idea would be to get involved with the Renault/Peugeot Project H joint-venture, especially since AMC would likely stand to benefit from said alliances and joint-ventures as a byproduct of its ties with Renault even if AMC itself would have little use for the PRV V6/V8 due to its ATL SBC V8-inspired Studebaker V6/V8/V12 family of engines. - https://driventowrite.com/2020/10/27/a-failure-of-nerve-renault-peugeot-projet-h/

I have only a minor quibble or two with this.

First, I don't think W-O could manage two lines prewar, given money trouble & a stingy bankruptcy judge.

Second, I'm not seeing Kaiser becoming involved at all, if TTL's W-O is run halfway competently, so the K-F V8 is effectively moot.

Third, I'd sooner avoid a Renault tieup until later. (Something about it just bugs me. Maybe it was the OTL experience, which seemed not to go well for AMC.)

I do like the idea of the Stude V8 being in play. Putting a Stude 289 in an *Aero GTO (so to speak)? 😎😎 If we can get the companies together soon enough, maybe it's Stude leading the way where the T-bird did OTL (as Indie Auto suggested), an idea I really like.😎😎 (Especially a blown 289.😎😎 Somehow, I see it based on the '53 "shovelnose" Commander.) I wouldn't go with Packard power outside a Packard, I don't think: too heavy, & a bit crude for the era; Packard seemed "behind the curve" in the '50s, in ref OHV & V8s.

That Renault "SUV" joint project looks really, really good.😎 If I could get that without Renault... If there was no other way, it might be worth it. And I kind of like the idea of having something like the Dauphine, or IKA Torino, or both, on an Aero platform, with a straight six or small V8.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I have only a minor quibble or two with this.

First, I don't think W-O could manage two lines prewar, given money trouble & a stingy bankruptcy judge.

Second, I'm not seeing Kaiser becoming involved at all, if TTL's W-O is run halfway competently, so the K-F V8 is effectively moot.

Third, I'd sooner avoid a Renault tieup until later. (Something about it just bugs me. Maybe it was the OTL experience, which seemed not to go well for AMC.)

I do like the idea of the Stude V8 being in play. Putting a Stude 289 in an *Aero GTO (so to speak)? 😎😎 If we can get the companies together soon enough, maybe it's Stude leading the way where the T-bird did OTL (as Indie Auto suggested), an idea I really like.😎😎 (Especially a blown 289.😎😎 Somehow, I see it based on the '53 "shovelnose" Commander.) I wouldn't go with Packard power outside a Packard, I don't think: too heavy, & a bit crude for the era; Packard seemed "behind the curve" in the '50s, in ref OHV & V8s.

That Renault "SUV" joint project looks really, really good.😎 If I could get that without Renault... If there was no other way, it might be worth it. And I kind of like the idea of having something like the Dauphine, or IKA Torino, or both, on an Aero platform, with a straight six or small V8.

Obviously some POD would be necessary for Willys to produce both the 77 and 99 pre-war.

Kaiser-Jeep's presence in South America with Industrias Kaiser Argentina / IKA and Willys-Overland do Brasil would be very valuable for an ATL AMC to retain ITTL, somewhat agree about the necessity of the ATL 288-327 Kaiser V8 with the presence of an ATL SBC inspired Studebaker V8 apart from being little more than a stop-gap.

It would also allow an earlier version of the Hornet-based 1971 Jeep Cowboy Pickup truck proposal to reach production. -

https://www.facebook.com/cardesignarchives/posts/232418763793134

While the OTL experience between AMC and Renault does cloud things, it was within the context of AMC's decline whereas ATL AMC (plus ATL Kaiser-Jeep and Studebaker-Packard) would be in a much stronger position ITTL and especially during the 1960s for them to engage in a more equal alliance / partnership with Renault (as opposed to a takeover / merger by Renault of AMC like in OTL).

While Renault were not in dire states during the 1960s like AMC was IOTL, the French government did pressure both Renault and Peugeot to collaborate on a number of join projects under the guise of reducing costs yet with the goal of merging them BL style (a plot which ultimately did not succeed). Renault's ties with AMC ITTL would not only strengthen their hand against government interference during the 1960s, but also allow them to afford to approve projects neither they themselves (with Project 114 and the A-Type Inline-6) nor both Renault and Peugeot could afford on their own (the Project H luxury car and PRV V8 engine).

Model wise ATL AMC would gain:

- A Renault 12/18-based analogue of the ARO 10/11 along with a Renault-based Matra Rancho analogue, giving Jeep an early 1.5-2.2 US analogue of the Suzuki Vitara/Sidekick in petrol, diesel and ethanol forms. -

https://www.facebook.com/cardesignarchives/posts/694286060939733

The Renault 16 derived 1965 Kaiser Jeep/Renault Model H Prototype would ultimately be a blind alley for both Jeep and Renault compared to a Renault 12/18-based SUV with a potential production life up to the early 1990s, which would by that point have been replaced by an ATL equivalent of the Jeep JJ project.

- An early version of the Jeep II and Jeep Jeepsy prototypes, effectively giving Jeep a 1.1-1.6 US analogue of the Suzuki Jimny in petrol, diesel and even ethanol forms.

- Along with an AMC version of the Renault 12/18 (in the manner of the Ford Corcel and Dacia 1300 plus variants such as the 2-door Coupe, Liberta 5-door fastback hatchback* - see below and other bodystyles), they would potentially gain a suitable basis for a C-Segment and B-Segment models derived from the Renault 12/18 with a similar production life as the OTL Omni/Horizon.

 

[phx1138]

It would also allow an earlier version of the Hornet-based 1971 Jeep Cowboy Pickup truck proposal to reach production.

That's definitely a good idea. I'd actually go a lot earlier, tho, especially if there are ties with Stude. Don't forget, Stude built a ute in '37-9, like a pre-Ranchero. I see no reason it couldn't return to production. (Yes, I'm a fan of the Camino.) I wouldn't aim it at the truck market (& Willys has trucks, & the Jeep, for that), but at a "light duty truck" segment: for people that need to haul bicycles, or the occasional sheet of lumber, or some furniture, not somebody who makes a living at hauling.

Come to think of it, there's also the prospect of a much smaller equivalent, like the Gremlin prototype of the '70s. It's got marginal utility, true, but it'd be really cool. 😎😎 And it could be built using existing body panels & parts: an *Aero or Americar front half & pickup back half, with (if needed) the pickup rear axle (but not the stiffer springs), & maybe a truck block (four or six, your choice; I'd offer an optional blown hemi six, just because ).

more equal alliance / partnership with Renault (as opposed to a takeover / merger by Renault of AMC like in OTL).

You've sold me. I'm picturing some Renault captive imports badged as AMCs, & a stronger U.S./North American presence for Renault. I'm also picturing a stronger AMC presence in Europe, which the Willyses (overall smaller than Fords & Chevys) would tend to foster, which is good for exports.

The Renault 16 derived 1965 Kaiser Jeep/Renault Model H Prototype would ultimately be a blind alley

You think? I'm seeing it as an answer to the sedan delivery. A sedan delivery on the Americar platform would get my vote, too. (Base on on the wagon.)

Thinking of wagons, avoid the woodie entirely, here. Make them all-steel from the start. Go after the competition with criticisms of wanting higher prices for termites & wood rot.

Edit:
One more thought: a tie-up with Honda in the '70s (earlier?), so *AMC jointly develops the CVCC tech. I could picture a licence deal to build Americars/*Aeros in Japan after Korea, & *AMC making Honda a division (starting maybe as a research lab, akin Cosworth?).

Thinking of Cosworth & racing, does *AMC get into Grand National? Or F1? Following Hudson's dominance in GN, it would be seriously cool for *AMC to be just as potent there. An *AMC-based F1 engine, akin the DFV or Repco, would be, too.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

One thing that comes to mind is whether the likes of Raymond Loewy, Brooks Stevens, Dick Teague or Pininfarina end up playing a role in ATL AMC (plus Kaiser-Jeep and Studebaker-Packard) to style the likes of the ATL Americar / Rambler American / Rambler Classic / Ambassador.

Especially in the event the company decides to move upmarket to something like Studebaker-Jeep.

1963-64 Studebaker Avanti: A classic failure - Indie Auto

1963-64 Studebaker Avanti: A classic failure - Fake Design Indie Auto

www.indieauto.org

Brooks Stevens's 1965 Studebaker Lark concept: Almost a baby Continental - Indie Auto

Brooks Stevens's 1965 Studebaker Lark concept: Almost a baby Continental - Fake Design Indie Auto

www.indieauto.org

Another would be a Rambler American sized sportscar and coupe versions of the larger Ambassador-based Budd XR-400 and Classic-based Rambler Marlin (albeit with less awkward styling compared to the OTL Rambler American-based Tarpon).

https://www.indieauto.org/2020/10/30/1965-66-amc-marlin-how-to-fix-beginners-mistakes/

That's definitely a good idea. I'd actually go a lot earlier, tho, especially if there are ties with Stude. Don't forget, Stude built a ute in '37-9, like a pre-Ranchero. I see no reason it couldn't return to production. (Yes, I'm a fan of the Camino.) I wouldn't aim it at the truck market (& Willys has trucks, & the Jeep, for that), but at a "light duty truck" segment: for people that need to haul bicycles, or the occasional sheet of lumber, or some furniture, not somebody who makes a living at hauling.

Come to think of it, there's also the prospect of a much smaller equivalent, like the Gremlin prototype of the '70s. It's got marginal utility, true, but it'd be really cool. 😎😎 And it could be built using existing body panels & parts: an *Aero or Americar front half & pickup back half, with (if needed) the pickup rear axle (but not the stiffer springs), & maybe a truck block (four or six, your choice; I'd offer an optional blown hemi six, just because ).

The later ATL Americar-sized models from the late-1960s onwards would subsequently be derived from the Renault 12/18 powered by ~2200cc 4-cylinder engines, butterflying away the 2-litre Gremlin/Spirit to reduce overlap.

With AMC possibly making use of a re-clothed version of the Renault Fuego 5-door proposal, equipped with both 4x4 and V6 variants.

https://www.facebook.com/cardesignarchives/posts/743947289306943

You've sold me. I'm picturing some Renault captive imports badged as AMCs, & a stronger U.S./North American presence for Renault. I'm also picturing a stronger AMC presence in Europe, which the Willyses (overall smaller than Fords & Chevys) would tend to foster, which is good for exports.

The ATL Renault based AMC models would be differentiated along similar lines as the Ford Corcel / Del Rey, Dacia 1300 and other related models possibly clothed in Pininfarina styling similar to the OTL Rambler American-based IKA Torino (and with Peugeot's Pininfarina styled proposal for its version of the Renault/Peugeot Project H luxury car project).

Above the Renault based models. Envision AMC management earlier on consolidating its remaining RWD lineup on the Hornet platform, ideally benefiting from improvements such as rack-and-pinion steering, a front sub-frame, more glass area and a taller greenhouse for sedans, full liftgate for Hornet/Concord wagon, etc* or additionally even getting away with more evolutionary and cheaper changes such as new sheet metal and reworked greenhouses, similar to the approach Ford successfully used in squeezing more years out of its Falcon and Fox platforms (thereby opening the door for the OTL Matador coupe’s unique sheetmetal to be shrunken down to the ATL Hornet chassis and offered as the next-generation Javelin).

Whereupon the ATL Hornet/Concord platform would be superseded from the early-1980s by an ATL RWD version of the Eagle Premier (aka OTL Chrysler LH) platform (e.g. launched same time as OTL Renault 25) with scope for similar scalability as the later OTL Chrysler LX platform, along with an ATL RWD version of the Renault 21 derived Eagle Madellion.

*- With the ATL Hornet ideally featuring lighter components compared to OTL that instead incorporated the same all-new front suspension with anti-brake dive as developed for AMC's large-sized senior 1970s models (Ambassador/Matador?), a consequence of the earlier consolidation of its RWD lineup on the Hornet platform ITTL.

As a result any ATL analogue of the OTL AMC Pacer if it still appears ITTL would be a lighter more practical cost-effective yet less ambitious 3/5-door Kammback rear derivative of the ATL Hornet/Concord with the same width and reduced glass area.


That is assuming ATL AMC does not decide to make use of both the front-engined RWD Renault 114 Project and Peugeot/Renault Project H luxury car proposal as two starting points for a more sophisticated range of European inspired RWD premium cars with re-clothed exterior styling.

You think? I'm seeing it as an answer to the sedan delivery. A sedan delivery on the Americar platform would get my vote, too. (Base on on the wagon.)

Thinking of wagons, avoid the woodie entirely, here. Make them all-steel from the start. Go after the competition with criticisms of wanting higher prices for termites & wood rot.

The 16 based proposal's usual wheelbase length would be a bit too idiosyncratic, whereas the Renault 12 based approach would be more conventional with its Audi-like longitudinal FWD layout and cheaper due to the commonality it would have with ATL AMC's Renault 12/18 based family of models.

Edit:
One more thought: a tie-up with Honda in the '70s (earlier?), so *AMC jointly develops the CVCC tech. I could picture a licence deal to build Americars/*Aeros in Japan after Korea, & *AMC making Honda a division (starting maybe as a research lab, akin Cosworth?).

Thinking of Cosworth & racing, does *AMC get into Grand National? Or F1? Following Hudson's dominance in GN, it would be seriously cool for *AMC to be just as potent there. An *AMC-based F1 engine, akin the DFV or Repco, would be, too.

It is unlikely.

 

[phx1138]

One thing that comes to mind is whether the likes of Raymond Loewy, Brooks Stevens, Dick Teague or Pininfarina end up playing a role in ATL AMC (plus Kaiser-Jeep and Studebaker-Packard) to style the likes of the ATL Americar / Rambler American / Rambler Classic / Ambassador.

Stevens’ '65 Lark concept should have been built.
<snip>
No disagreements with any of that.

It is unlikely.

Given OTL AMC did get into NASCAR? I'll grant an AMC *Repco or *Cosworth is pushing the envelope. (I'd probably do it anyway, just because--& because *AMC is attracting adventurous talent. Anything to raise the company profile. (Not a factory racing team, in any formula, to be sure; the money's just not there.)

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Stevens’ '65 Lark concept should have been built.

Could have done with significantly more refining without the constraints of having to carry over as much as possible from the OTL Lark, with Brooks Stevens ideally working together with Dick Teague to create a style that can be used on something like the similarly sized OTL Rambler Classic.

Perhaps an early 1960s version of the OTL 3rd generation Studebaker Lark's exterior styling with a touch or few by Dick Teague would also work as well?

The same goes with an exterior resembling a less radical version of the OTL Avanti that is essentially a Lark / Hawk variant as mentioned in the Avanti article, yet without the constraint's OTL Studebaker-Packard had to deal with.

Given OTL AMC did get into NASCAR? I'll grant an AMC *Repco or *Cosworth is pushing the envelope. (I'd probably do it anyway, just because--& because *AMC is attracting adventurous talent. Anything to raise the company profile. (Not a factory racing team, in any formula, to be sure; the money's just not there.)

ATL AMC might embrace turbochargers ITTL during the 1970s, based on its ties with Renault as well as the V6 version of the SBC V8-like ATL Studebaker V8 possessing a similar capability as the OTL turbocharged GM 90-degree V6 and Buick V6 engines (if not a turbocharged version of the SBC V8-like Studebaker V8 akin to the turbocharged Chrysler LA V8s used by Bristol).

 

[Masked Grizzly]

For the later 1980s Americar models in this ATL, it would be pretty funny seeing ads resembling a more patriotic composite of the OTL Peugeot 405 "Take My Breath Away" ads with a Team America-esque twist. Though in the Americar's case it would essentially be a Renault-derived car (albeit with greater AMC involvement from its conception to be considered its own) that like the Peugeot 405 is also clothed in a Pininfarina styled body.