Austro-Prussian War WI: France Joins Austria’s Side And Russia Joins Prussia’s Side

Who Will Win

  • Austria-France

    Votes: 27 14.8%
  • Prussia-Russia

    Votes: 124 67.8%
  • Neither/Compromise/Truce

    Votes: 32 17.5%

  • Total voters
    183
In this scenario, when the Austro-Prussian War happens, France declares war on Prussia as an excuse to seize the Rhineland and to keep Germany divided whilst Russia declares war on Austria in order to seize Galicia, establish a friendly puppet government in Hungary, and overall pay back Austria for abandoning them during the Crimean War. Assuming this happens how bad can the Austro-Prussian War get?

Could this be a proto-WWI in the making? Could more countries hop in the war therefore expanding the war to other places? And more importantly who wins?
 
Bismarck both is bickering and rubbing his hands, France and Austria already give him the Causus Belis to create the Empire earlier and Russia can destroy the southern Catholics for him. but will have the headache that Willy I will demand more lands from Austria ITTL. Plus France is going to hit their heads against Fortress Luxemburg(fully manned by Prussians at the time)
 
Bismarck both is bickering and rubbing his hands, France and Austria already give him the Causus Belis to create the Empire earlier and Russia can destroy the southern Catholics for him. but will have the headache that Willy I will demand more lands from Austria ITTL. Plus France is going to hit their heads against Fortress Luxemburg(fully manned by Prussians at the time)
How will Britain respond? Ottomans?
 
Prussia counterbalances France while Russia overtakes Austria.

The Ottomans can attempt to help fight, but have neither the strength to tip the balance and only risk losing lands to Russia at the table. The British can attempt to support France, but unless Austria survives the first 5 months of the war then their entry would make little difference.
 
I think it helps Austria. France also ties up Italy letting Austria shift more forces north. But I'm not sure that's enough to tip the scales enough towards the Austria and France side. Prussia is just way stronger than Austria in 1866.
 
I think it helps Austria. France also ties up Italy letting Austria shift more forces north. But I'm not sure that's enough to tip the scales enough towards the Austria and France side. Prussia is just way stronger than Austria in 1866.
Somewhat, though Russia's entry shifts it more to Prussia's favor I feel.
 
Somewhat, though Russia's entry shifts it more to Prussia's favor I feel.
Depends on how modern this Russia is post-Crimea. If they modernized their army in a decade they might be formidable. Then again, beating Austria in 1866 isn't exactly a high burden - the country was kind of a disaster. There's a reason the Prussians beat them in seven weeks OTL after all.
 
One important thing to note is that the speed of Prussian mobilisation allowed them to annihilate many princes who were unable to co-ordinate with Austria. French intervention would probably seriously alter the patterns of Prussian mobilisation as they would have to move forces west to counter this, allowing Austria to mobilise properly and take advantage of their central position while Prussia's forces suffer offensives on multiple threats. The Russian army remains a grave danger, but it may take some time for it to come into full use, by which time the Prussians may be hard pressed. That said one must take into account the well-developed Prussian railway system and Army structure, so it's unlikely that they're simply picked at from all sides and knocked out, indeed they do probably launch several successful offensives.
 
One important thing to note is that the speed of Prussian mobilisation allowed them to annihilate many princes who were unable to co-ordinate with Austria. French intervention would probably seriously alter the patterns of Prussian mobilisation as they would have to move forces west to counter this, allowing Austria to mobilise properly and take advantage of their central position while Prussia's forces suffer offensives on multiple threats. The Russian army remains a grave danger, but it may take some time for it to come into full use, by which time the Prussians may be hard pressed. That said one must take into account the well-developed Prussian railway system and Army structure, so it's unlikely that they're simply picked at from all sides and knocked out, indeed they do probably launch several successful offensives.
So basically we’re looking at a war that’ll last a lot longer than a few weeks. I could see this going well for France at first if Prussia is fighting a two front war but a few years later Austria gets knocked out but I could see Prussia being too exhausted to demand nothing more than reparations from France so maybe France gets to keep Alsace-Lorraine this time.
 
but I could see Prussia being too exhausted to demand nothing more than reparations from France
the opposite, with the Russians doubling as a garrison duty in Austria, the veteran will go West now and France would have got several stalls on Luxemburg and the Prussian border, when of course bismarck would want to avoid a permanent enemy, the tension here would demands much more, like colonies from France and a full-fledge Demilitarized zone in Eltass, and if they refuse to give up, they would loss Eltass 5 year earlier
 
the opposite, with the Russians doubling as a garrison duty in Austria, the veteran will go West now and France would have got several stalls on Luxemburg and the Prussian border, when of course bismarck would want to avoid a permanent enemy, the tension here would demands much more, like colonies from France and a full-fledge Demilitarized zone in Eltass, and if they refuse to give up, they would loss Eltass 5 year earlier
And then Britain might be worried about Germany hogging too much.
 
Depends on how modern this Russia is post-Crimea. If they modernized their army in a decade they might be formidable.

It was and was not modernized. Structurally, it was due to the Milutin’s reform, which started in 1861. However, 1865-66 is still a transitional period and a weaponry may be an issue: simply did not see the data on that period and those of 1877 are irrelevant.

But keep in mind that the Russian Empire is still in a social and economic transition, which may cause problems if the war is a prolonged one.

Then again, beating Austria in 1866 isn't exactly a high burden - the country was kind of a disaster. There's a reason the Prussians beat them in seven weeks OTL after all.
 
Looking back on this, does a Russian entry on Prussia’s side mean it’ll be over for Austria-Hungary? Bismark and Nicholas would benefit from dismembering Austria-Hungary and seizing lands and establishing puppet states for itself. Also this makes any conflict in the Balkans possibly worse for the Ottomans thanks to a more powerful Russian presence.
 
Just to note: Italy will be also in the war on the russo-prussian side.

As for the result: I think the russians and prussians win, but not as decisively as they could. The main beneficiary of this victory would be Prussia (I do not think that either wanted the full dismemberment of Austria this time around and Russia especially is not interested in a too big and too strong Germany) and a lot of the heavy lifting to be done by Russia, so I think Russia will force the prussians to a compromise peace - this I think would not be a total war, not yet. In the end the prussians might end up with less than OTL: Alsace im pretty sure would remain french (as the conflict is unikely to end in prussian boots in Paris and I think the russians will push more to end the conflict early on their terms than with troops to Vienna), Italy gets both Rome and Venice, Prussia something akin to the NGF - most likely without the annexation of Hannover, Austria is out of german affairs, maybe Luxemburg to Prussia because France has again proven to be a danger to European peace. Russia maybe part of Galicia or Bukovina?
 
With France, Russia, Prussia and Austria all at war - and Italy almost guaranteed to throw its lot in with them, this is no longer a German internal struggle but the largest in scale pan-European war since the Napoleonic war. And with the promise of German-Russian hegemony in central-eastern Europe I think it’s likely that Britain might intervene to not see Prussia/Germany swallow the west too.
 
Just to note: Italy will be also in the war on the russo-prussian side.

As for the result: I think the russians and prussians win, but not as decisively as they could. The main beneficiary of this victory would be Prussia (I do not think that either wanted the full dismemberment of Austria this time around and Russia especially is not interested in a too big and too strong Germany) and a lot of the heavy lifting to be done by Russia, so I think Russia will force the prussians to a compromise peace - this I think would not be a total war, not yet. In the end the prussians might end up with less than OTL: Alsace im pretty sure would remain french (as the conflict is unikely to end in prussian boots in Paris and I think the russians will push more to end the conflict early on their terms than with troops to Vienna), Italy gets both Rome and Venice, Prussia something akin to the NGF - most likely without the annexation of Hannover, Austria is out of german affairs, maybe Luxemburg to Prussia because France has again proven to be a danger to European peace. Russia maybe part of Galicia or Bukovina?
Russia could establish a friendly puppet state in Hungary and also use this as an opportunity to gain control in the Balkans. And while they don’t want a strong Germany I also see Russia trying to gain as much control of the Balkans as it can.

With France, Russia, Prussia and Austria all at war - and Italy almost guaranteed to throw its lot in with them, this is no longer a German internal struggle but the largest in scale pan-European war since the Napoleonic war. And with the promise of German-Russian hegemony in central-eastern Europe I think it’s likely that Britain might intervene to not see Prussia/Germany swallow the west too.
I can see almost every nation in Europe save Switzerland and the microstates getting involved one way or another. It’ll definitely be a huge thing and would set up for an alt-WWI for sure.
 
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It all depends on how the war drums are beating. There’s about two and half months between Prussia’s initial mobilization and war actually stating in 1866. If it looks like other countries are getting involved in this time period, Bismarck probably backs down and there is no war. He just waits for the next crisis to try and exploit.

The rapid speed of Prussia IOTL and decisive defeat of Austria in just a month shocked most of Europe, which is why nobody else got involved. France, UK, and Russia all thought it be a longer and more protracted war so they figured they would sit it out and only get involved if things looked dicey. They never had a chance. So the most likely scenario to get a wider European War here is Prussia does worse in the initial stages and events spiral from there.

Russia is slow to mobilize and France already has over 100,000 men committed to Mexico and Algeria, so they’d need time to pull them back to really get involved. Honestly, I’m not sure how much the UK could do at this point. How many men do they even have to commit? The British Army was a minor partner in the Crimean War, for example. Denmark may jump back in and allow Britain to stage there in the hope of getting Holstein back and box Russia in the Baltic, but maybe not since they were friendly too to Russia. But if Russia is backing Prussia that might change. It’s complicated!

I’m of the opinion that this scenario ends in a negotiated peace in less than two years, probably one year, like most European Wars of OTL prior to WWI. They all have institutional scars from the Napoleonic Wars still and the industrial capacity required for full mass mobilization war is not flushed out yet. There are going to be winners and losers on each side.

A lesser Prussian victory versus OTL seems likely, probably a smaller North German Union with less annexations. They don’t gain Alsace-Lorraine but there might be a future war with France still.

Italy is probably going to do poorly. Austria did well IOTL Austro-Prussian War against them and we saw France had a successful rapid mobilization into northern Italy IOTL Franco-Austrian War. If I was France, my plan would be to plan a defensive mobilization against the Rhineland but go on the offensive against Italy. March on Florence and get a ceasefire as soon as possible, secure Rome then move the troops north. The peace probably allows France to secure Rome’s independence for the Pope and withdraw their troops after the war. Napoleon wanted this more than any territory in Italy. Italy may have to give up on Venetia for now which is going to cause nationalistic problems at home and likely down the line for the Austrians.

I’m struggling to see Russia wanting Austria’s dismantled at this point, but it could go either way. In the 1860s. The January Uprising is still fresh and Alexander II seemed opposed to awakening national sentiments. It depends on which way the war develops.

Russia just had major uprisings and basically martial law is in effect across most of old Poland-Lithuania. Do they really want to add more non-Russians now? If Russian engagement is minimal, slow to mobilize and on the edge of the real fight, may be satisfied with simply getting the Treaty of Paris overturned and remilitarizing the Black Sea.

If it turns into a slog, they are already pissed at the Austrians and could be out for blood. But this might be limited to annexing Galicia (partial or whole) and/or Krakow. The Concert of Europe was real and most every diplomat of the time was bought into wanting to keep the ‘balance’. In their minds, Austria played in important part in that system, otherwise Russia could March straight to the Adriatic! If it looks like Prussia is gaining in Germany, the negotiations requiring some tranfers of Polish territory isn’t out of the question.

I disagree that the Ottomans are certain to sit this out. If Russia looks too successful against Austria, they are definitely motivated to jump in as any gain for Russia threatens their position.
 
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Prussia counterbalances France while Russia overtakes Austria.

The Ottomans can attempt to help fight, but have neither the strength to tip the balance and only risk losing lands to Russia at the table. The British can attempt to support France, but unless Austria survives the first 5 months of the war then their entry would make little difference.

Not sure if Britain would support France, especially if France is gunning for the Rhineland.

France was seen as the biggest threat and competitor to Britain at that time, despite Napoleon III's efforts to improve relations.

More likely Britain would support Prussia.
 
UK can't let Austria to collapse, it would kill balance of power for good and would open highway to Black Sea straits for Russia. Britain does not want any side to win decisively but it'll intervene on behalf of weaker Austrian-French alliance to prevent it from collapse.
 
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