Austro-Prussian War Austrian victory

Prussia is defeated and on February 1 1867 Franz Joseph I is crowed Holy Roman Emperor in Vienna of a restored Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire coqqers itlay in next two years. In the war of 1870 Second French Empire is crushed by the Holy Roman Empire witch puts harder terms on France the in OTL.




Treaty of Frankfurt 1871
Established the frontier between the French Third Republic and the Holy Roman Empire , which involved the ceding of 1,694 villages and cities under French control to The Holy Roman Empire in:


  • Gave residents of the returned Alsace-Lorraine region until 1 October 1872 to decide between keeping their French nationality and emigrating, or remaining in the region and becoming Holy Roman Empire citizens.
    military occupation of all of France for 2 years
    Regulated Frances payment of war reparations of 269 billion Goldmarks to the The Holy Roman
    Required military occupation of Champagne-Ardenne and eastern part of Île-de-France to within 6 km of Paris until the reparations are paid

  • The use of navigable waterways in connection to Alsace-Lorraine
    Trade between the two countries
    The return of prisoners of war
    50 km wide demilitarized zone along border entry in to by France armed force will be act of war
France armed forces will number no more than50,000 troops, and conscription will be abolished.

  • France naval forces will be limited to 10,000 men, no Battleships 4 cruisers (no more than 4,000 tons displacement each),

  • The import and export of weapons is prohibited.
    Restrictions on the manufacture of Guns

  • military Restrictions to last for 90 years
 

Prefrence

Banned
Why would France be crushed? If anything France would be Austria's greatest ally

Plus why does Austrian victory against France automatically give then Ascale-Lorraine? Even Bismark didn't want it to be annexed... (eventually the kaiser won out)
 
Prussia is defeated and on February 1 1867 Franz Joseph I is crowed Holy Roman Emperor in Vienna of a restored Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire coqqers itlay in next two years. In the war of 1870 Second French Empire is crushed by the Holy Roman Empire witch puts harder terms on France the in OTL.




Treaty of Frankfurt 1871
Established the frontier between the French Third Republic and the Holy Roman Empire , which involved the ceding of 1,694 villages and cities under French control to The Holy Roman Empire in:

  • Gave residents of the returned Alsace-Lorraine region until 1 October 1872 to decide between keeping their French nationality and emigrating, or remaining in the region and becoming Holy Roman Empire citizens.
    military occupation of all of France for 2 years
    Regulated Frances payment of war reparations of 269 billion Goldmarks to the The Holy Roman
    Required military occupation of Champagne-Ardenne and eastern part of Île-de-France to within 6 km of Paris until the reparations are paid
  • The use of navigable waterways in connection to Alsace-Lorraine
    Trade between the two countries
    The return of prisoners of war
    50 km wide demilitarized zone along border entry in to by France armed force will be act of war
France armed forces will number no more than50,000 troops, and conscription will be abolished.

  • France naval forces will be limited to 10,000 men, no Battleships 4 cruisers (no more than 4,000 tons displacement each),
  • The import and export of weapons is prohibited.
    Restrictions on the manufacture of Guns
  • military Restrictions to last for 90 years


Hello,

some problems with this:
a.) how do austria beat prussia (and italy)?
b.) if austria beats prussia and italy and create the holy german empire this will lead to
c.) britain will take side with france - so this lead to a long bloody war...

i like to read about a.) and how you avoid c.)


but i agree - a real punishment for france would solve a lot problems (even if prussia go as historical)

with a hard peace france is out of the race for a long time - esp. if you forbid a army larger as 50.000 men or a large fleet.
You also could forbid armarment factories (this would hamper the french revance really)...
everything for 99 years... so you cripple france (but do not touch its colonies or such things - also forbid fortress building in france ;)

with this, france cannot start another war - the brits will be upset - but only partly, cause with the destruction of the french fleet they have a free hand...
 
Britain and the other European powers wouldn't like a large Grossdeutschland upsetting the balance of power, so a treaty as punitive as Versailles wouldn't fly. And Germany would have no reason to put down France, especially an Austria-dominated one.
 
Britain and the other European powers wouldn't like a large Grossdeutschland upsetting the balance of power, so a treaty as punitive as Versailles wouldn't fly. And Germany would have no reason to put down France, especially an Austria-dominated one.


yes... ah beating prussia cannot happen
no... with france being defeated the brits cannot wage war against it. so germany can dictate very hard peace conditions, even harder as historcal done

how serious this change the political world of 1872 is interesting...
for UK things change
- germany is strong (like in real world) and united - but not economically the enemy of the future (it will be, but in 1872 nobody in uk thought about this)
- france as a weapon on the continent is no longer an option
+ france as an enemy in no longer a danger (britain need no so big navy, france cannot be so agressive in africa, etc...)
+ germany is an ally is very interesting to tame down russia (britains other arch enemy)

But austria-hungaria plus "germany" would be to big...
 
I think this New Holy Roman Empire Would be very stupid to make a massive enemy out of France. It would be surrounded by Enemy's on all sides. France will rearm as soon as the new Holy Roman Empire starts getting torn apart by internal revolt. France might just simply have to march into its lost territory once Austrian troops are spread thin putting down revolts in Northern Germany, Italy, and possibly Hungary. Russia, Britain, and France will become real good friends especially with this new hyper-aggressive and insane Holy Roman Empire's emergence .
 
Hi

Beating Prussia would be difficult, at least with a late POD, but not impossible. However unlikely to be as decisive as OTL defeat of Austria and the other German states. I could see Austria regaining Silesia and possibly separating the Rhine provinces from Prussia but the latter would still be a significant power, if markedly reduced. Similarly I can't really see a new HRE. Austria has the Confederation already and has strengthened its leadership of it so doesn't need a new organisation and I think the other German states would be unwilling to have a more restrictive organisation. Since the bulk of those are allies rather than defeated foes this would be difficult.

Taking all Italy would be both ASB and stupid. Austria would probably, under those circumstances, keep Venantia and might want to regain Lombardy, although that would be difficult and bloody costly to hold. I doubt it would want or be able to conquer it all, especially with unwilling allies, Prussia still resentful behind it and growing concern from other powers.

Austria then quickly conquering France and imposing an even more draconian peace than OTL 1871 pushes it even further into ASB territory. Italy, whether conquered and rebellious or resentful about losses in 1866 will be hostile and Prussia is likely to consider a rematch if Austria gets deeply involved in France. Also the idea of this mega-empire on a conquest spree now screwing is likely to get reactions in London and St Petersburg.

Steve
 
Prussia is defeated and on February 1 1867 Franz Joseph I is crowed Holy Roman Emperor in Vienna of a restored Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire coqqers itlay in next two years. In the war of 1870 Second French Empire is crushed by the Holy Roman Empire witch puts harder terms on France the in OTL.




Treaty of Frankfurt 1871
Established the frontier between the French Third Republic and the Holy Roman Empire , which involved the ceding of 1,694 villages and cities under French control to The Holy Roman Empire in:


  • Gave residents of the returned Alsace-Lorraine region until 1 October 1872 to decide between keeping their French nationality and emigrating, or remaining in the region and becoming Holy Roman Empire citizens.
    military occupation of all of France for 2 years
    Regulated Frances payment of war reparations of 269 billion Goldmarks to the The Holy Roman
    Required military occupation of Champagne-Ardenne and eastern part of Île-de-France to within 6 km of Paris until the reparations are paid

  • The use of navigable waterways in connection to Alsace-Lorraine
    Trade between the two countries
    The return of prisoners of war
    50 km wide demilitarized zone along border entry in to by France armed force will be act of war
France armed forces will number no more than50,000 troops, and conscription will be abolished.

  • France naval forces will be limited to 10,000 men, no Battleships 4 cruisers (no more than 4,000 tons displacement each),

  • The import and export of weapons is prohibited.
    Restrictions on the manufacture of Guns

  • military Restrictions to last for 90 years

They must sell wonderful things wherever you live :rolleyes:
 
The thing is, the best way to get an Austrian victory is to actually have France intervene on the Austrian side (Napoleon III was on the verge of sending troops into the Prussian Rhineland when Austria surrendered. Have him be a bit quicker off the ball and he could sweep through a Prussian Rhineland denuded of troops and relieve the Austrian front).

What is more likely that a new Holy Roman Empire is that many Prussian gains in 1815 are revoked, namely:

-Return of Northern Saxony to Saxony.
-Wetzlar to one of the Hesses
-Prussian Rhineland split between Bavaria, Hannover and either Austria or a cadet branch of the Habsburgs.
-Possibly Silesia back to Austria
-Brunswick might be given to Hannover
-Holstein under a Habsburg
-Venetia remains Austrian.
 
The thing is, the best way to get an Austrian victory is to actually have France intervene on the Austrian side (Napoleon III was on the verge of sending troops into the Prussian Rhineland when Austria surrendered. Have him be a bit quicker off the ball and he could sweep through a Prussian Rhineland denuded of troops and relieve the Austrian front).

What is more likely that a new Holy Roman Empire is that many Prussian gains in 1815 are revoked, namely:

-Return of Northern Saxony to Saxony.
-Wetzlar to one of the Hesses
-Prussian Rhineland split between Bavaria, Hannover and either Austria or a cadet branch of the Habsburgs.
-Possibly Silesia back to Austria
-Brunswick might be given to Hannover
-Holstein under a Habsburg
-Venetia remains Austrian.


but if the french really act in this war, german unification start in 1867 and austria and france will be beaten seriously. france in the war lead to a faster unification... also, with france siding austria, great britain come to life - as an enemy to france (sometimes balance of power is a good thing, sometimes a bad one)... france will turn away as fast as possible... also russia could think about austria...

or short: bring in france and the thing explode
and the muzzle-loading french against the prussian army will be a very fast and very easy prussian victory... the same with austria - thats it why i have so much trouble with it... königgrätz was the biggest single battle of the 19th century and very singlesided. austria is doomed, if the french advance with their small and weak army (slow fireing rifles) they will be crushed even worse.

you need a different plot and a way earlier starting time for this
 
but if the french really act in this war, german unification start in 1867 and austria and france will be beaten seriously. france in the war lead to a faster unification... also, with france siding austria, great britain come to life - as an enemy to france (sometimes balance of power is a good thing, sometimes a bad one)... france will turn away as fast as possible... also russia could think about austria...

or short: bring in france and the thing explode
and the muzzle-loading french against the prussian army will be a very fast and very easy prussian victory... the same with austria - thats it why i have so much trouble with it... königgrätz was the biggest single battle of the 19th century and very singlesided. austria is doomed, if the french advance with their small and weak army (slow fireing rifles) they will be crushed even worse.

you need a different plot and a way earlier starting time for this

Austria was easily handled by a prepared Prussia, who relied on the fact that France wasn't intervening to sweep through it. With French intervention Prussia has it far harder.
 
Quick question.
Why would there be a war between HRE and France in 1870?
What are they fighting about if Germany is already unified?
 
Quick question.
Why would there be a war between HRE and France in 1870?
What are they fighting about if Germany is already unified?


well, french pride? that was it in 1870... but i doubt that france would try to attack an unified germany... the whole thing has no basement
 
Austria was easily handled by a prepared Prussia, who relied on the fact that France wasn't intervening to sweep through it. With French intervention Prussia has it far harder.

SavoyTruffle

I wouldn't say easily. Although the Prussians had some clear advantages in organisation and tactics the Austrian artillery war clearly superior. More importantly Prussia was, in this war, willing to offer fairly moderate terms so there was no need to fight to the bitter end.

If France intervened before the German states are totally defeated and with the bulk of the Prussians tied down in Bohemia then the Prussians will get defeated.

Steve
 
SavoyTruffle

I wouldn't say easily. Although the Prussians had some clear advantages in organisation and tactics the Austrian artillery war clearly superior. More importantly Prussia was, in this war, willing to offer fairly moderate terms so there was no need to fight to the bitter end.

If France intervened before the German states are totally defeated and with the bulk of the Prussians tied down in Bohemia then the Prussians will get defeated.

Steve

I see.

Another reason why Prussia offered moderate terms was to make sure Austria wouldn't antagonize it too much for a rematch - look at how the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine colored WWI.
 
Prussia is defeated and on February 1 1867 Franz Joseph I is crowed Holy Roman Emperor in Vienna of a restored Holy Roman Empire.
Pretty achievable, the Battle of Koniggratz was much closer than a lot of people think. IIRC they Prussian armed forces hadn't eaten for a couple days, their only way of retreat was through a narrow pass so if they were defeated it would turn into a mess, and what troops escaped through the pass would then have to travel through territory which had already been picked clean of supplies.

Whether they can get away with re-creating the Holy Roman Empire is another matter. The rulers of the various German states have had 60 odd years to get used to being sovereign, why would they suddenly decide to place themselves under a brand new Holy Roman Emperor? Great Britain and France would certainly disapprove of an Austria that looks like it's trying to dominate the continent. If memory serves Prussia renounced and left the German Confederation before the war started so this effectively leaves Franz Joseph I as President with Prussia firmly on the outside. You'd be more likely to see Austria trying to expand their influence through this than resurrecting the Holy Roman Empire in my opinion.

The best you can do would be some major restructuring within Germany, but again Austria can't grab too much power without antagonising France and Great Britain into seeing them as an expansionary threat. When this topic comes up the general consensus seems to be that Prussia is going to lose Silesia since it balances out the loss of Venetia. The Prussian provinces of Rhineland and Westphalia are lost and turned into duchies to compensate the Habsburg Francis V Duke of Modena and Ferdinand IV the Grand Duke of Tuscany who both had to recently give up their territories. This way they can argue that they're not upsetting the balance of power since Venetia and Silesia cancel each other out and the other territory is going to relatives and not being annexed.

Elsewhere Holstein goes to the Duke of Augustenburg. Hanover remains independent and inherits the Duchy of Brunswick as they were meant to, plus probably tires to swipe the Free Cities of Bremen, Hamburg, and Lubeck if possible as they were on the losing side. Oldenburg avoids this fate since the dukes were related to the Russian Tsar. Saxony gets the territory it lost back in 1815 since it weakens Prussia without directly strengthening Austria, plus Napoleon III would probably approve since they only reason they lost the land was being to loyal to his uncle.


The Holy Roman Empire conquers Italy in next two years.
Never going to happen. They've already given up Lombardy and before the war they agreed with France to cede Venetia to them on the understanding that it would be handed on to Piedmont-Sardinia in return for France agreeing to stay out of the fighting. Napoleon III had a major soft spot for Italy and the unification movement and supported it heavily, there's no way he's likely to allow Austria to get out of their obligation to hand over Venetia let alone try and invade the rest of the peninsula. If they did try to renege on the agreement I could see Napoleon III sending troops into the Rhineland and Westphalia to occupy them to force Austria to keep their promises.
 
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