Austro-Prussian Germany

Umm...if Frederick married Maria Theresa it would be in the 1730s, and he'd never have invaded Silesia. By 1740, she's already married, and her husband didn't die until 1765, by which point they had had numerous children to inherit the Habsburg lands.

But I'm not sure why we should see a Habsburg-Hohenzollern marriage as plausible. The religious issue is genuinely important - Frederick himself isn't religious, but his father certainly isn't going to let him convert to Catholicism to marry Maria Theresa, and Charles VI certainly isn't going to let his daughter and heir marry a Protestant. Additionally, the other electors and princes of the Empire, as well as the French would be very strongly opposed to such a marriage.
 
When it comes to a Habsburg-Hohenzollern Union the only major problem is the religious one. If that can be resolved and the two married then yeah, France and the other Minor German States like Saxony and Bavaria will oppose it, but my response is a big fat "Who cares?" Historically France, Saxony, and Bavaria did declare war on Austria when Maria Theresa came to the throne and even with also needing to fight Prussia Austria managed to drive the Franco-Bavarians from Bavaria itself and keep all of their central territories.

With Prussia on Austria's side, and with England likely still supporting Austria since an Austro-Prussian union is not as scary to them as a France with the Southern Netherlands, then unless France manages to get Russia, who was allied with Austria historically, onto their side then the Austro-Prussian armies smash France's face in.

I expect the war starts off with Prussia knocking Saxony out almost immediately. If France-Bavaria still tries to go after Bohemia they may experience the success they did historically, but if Austria experiences their historical successes in Bavaria, that just leaves the Franco-Bavarians surrounded by enough soldiers that Austria-Prussia descends on them and destroys the entire damn army. Then the two drive west and oust France from the Netherlands, possibly even driving down into France itself. Plus, with no threat to their north then Austria can redeploy forces south to Italy to combat Sardinia-Piedmont.

So yeah, some of the Imperial Princes may not like this union. Who Cares? Historically the only Imperial Prince who managed to get anything done was Prussia and the PoD is them being on Austria's side.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Banned
Indeed it was proposed that Frederick married Maria Theresia. Thus it is possible to do so. And indeed religion is the only major point against (intrigues excluded).
 
Is it absolutely essential that a single hereditary monarch rule all of the unified German state? Why not have the Habsburgs, the Hohenzollerns, and various lesser dynasties each reign over their "traditional" lands, but not over Germany as a whole?

For the German state as a whole, either have an elected head of state, an invited dynasty from outside Germany, or a newly created pan-German dynasty starting with some suitable German citizen (not already in the Hochadel).

In a previous thread, I suggested a monarch from one of the minor Hohenzollern principalities. Southern and Catholic to appease Austria yet relatives of the Prussian ruling house. (Also, unimportant enough to not be a threat to either).
 
When it comes to a Habsburg-Hohenzollern Union the only major problem is the religious one. If that can be resolved and the two married then yeah, France and the other Minor German States like Saxony and Bavaria will oppose it, but my response is a big fat "Who cares?" Historically France, Saxony, and Bavaria did declare war on Austria when Maria Theresa came to the throne and even with also needing to fight Prussia Austria managed to drive the Franco-Bavarians from Bavaria itself and keep all of their central territories.

With Prussia on Austria's side, and with England likely still supporting Austria since an Austro-Prussian union is not as scary to them as a France with the Southern Netherlands, then unless France manages to get Russia, who was allied with Austria historically, onto their side then the Austro-Prussian armies smash France's face in.

I expect the war starts off with Prussia knocking Saxony out almost immediately. If France-Bavaria still tries to go after Bohemia they may experience the success they did historically, but if Austria experiences their historical successes in Bavaria, that just leaves the Franco-Bavarians surrounded by enough soldiers that Austria-Prussia descends on them and destroys the entire damn army. Then the two drive west and oust France from the Netherlands, possibly even driving down into France itself. Plus, with no threat to their north then Austria can redeploy forces south to Italy to combat Sardinia-Piedmont.

So yeah, some of the Imperial Princes may not like this union. Who Cares? Historically the only Imperial Prince who managed to get anything done was Prussia and the PoD is them being on Austria's side.

Who else cares ?

Well, just almost all european powers !

Having a union between the Habsburg territories and Prussia would be such a change in the balance of powers that other powers would oppose it : Russia and France of course, but also Britain because Britain would never want continental Europe to be organized in 3 superpowers : France that would be going for compensations, Habsburg-Hohenzollern central Europe, and Russia.
You can aslo add Denmark, Sweden, Bavaria, Saxony and the other german princes, and other neighbour minor powers who will oppose such a move.

This just won't happen. It was centuries that all other european powers were satisfied with the HRE's becoming an almost impotent mess and they will struggle to maintain a quite similar situation.

They knew what it had implied from emperor Charles V to the treaties of Westphalia and would not tolerate such an evolution.
 
Who else cares ?

Well, just almost all european powers !

Having a union between the Habsburg territories and Prussia would be such a change in the balance of powers that other powers would oppose it : Russia and France of course, but also Britain because Britain would never want continental Europe to be organized in 3 superpowers : France that would be going for compensations, Habsburg-Hohenzollern central Europe, and Russia.
You can aslo add Denmark, Sweden, Bavaria, Saxony and the other german princes, and other neighbour minor powers who will oppose such a move.

This just won't happen. It was centuries that all other european powers were satisfied with the HRE's becoming an almost impotent mess and they will struggle to maintain a quite similar situation.

They knew what it had implied from emperor Charles V to the treaties of Westphalia and would not tolerate such an evolution.

That won't happen. Prussia during 1740 was seen as a small electorate, at part with Bavaria or Saxony, not a great power. It was only Frederick II that opened their eyes. In this scenario, it will not be seen like France having a union with Spain. No, it would be like Austria having a union with Naples, or England having a union with Ireland, or France having a union with Brittany (apt since Brandenburg is technically a vassal of the emperor, like Brittany is a vassal of the king of France).

Not significant enough to warrant a general coalition.

If the rest of Europe ganging up on Austria alone wasn't enough to dismember it, adding Prussia to her side would ensure that union. They would beat them in a defensive war, since Frederick II would be talented enough to do so. Maria Theresa on her own preserved the Austrian Empire save Silesia, and Frederick the great with not continental allies prevented Russia, Austria, and France from dismebering Prussia in OTL. Combining their talents and resources would make them very hard to beat defensively, which is all what is needed to preserve such union.

In this situation, the best compensation for France would be the Austrian Netherlands in exchange for recognizing the union. (France would see it as par with swapping Bavaria for the Netherlands). As for the rest? If France is neutral or tolerated it, they can do nothing.
 
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The eyes were open on Prussia as early as 1740. And there was a good reason for Frederick II's father having being nicknamed the seargent-king.

Anyway, you don't need Prussia to be considered a superpower to have others oppose such an union. Just consider what happened with the war of Bavarian succession.
 
The eyes were open on Prussia as early as 1740. And there was a good reason for Frederick II's father having being nicknamed the seargent-king.

Anyway, you don't need Prussia to be considered a superpower to have others oppose such an union. Just consider what happened with the war of Bavarian succession.

The sargeant king was considered an eccentric loon, known for his obsession with tall soldiers. Frederick William I never started any war at all.

No, Prussia was not considered a great power at all in 1740. Not without Silesia. Not without any significant accomplishment, save the elector being king in some backwater former polish duchy. Prussia in 1740 is not even looked upon as Sweden, Netherlands, or even Portugal! What did Prussia do before 1740 to make in mentioned in the same breathe as Spain, France, Austria, Sweden? Nothing at all. There would be opposition to Prussia-Austrian union, but not the desperate opposition to a union of France and Spain or any such combination.



Besides, even if all of Europe made war with Austria and Prussia, Maria Theresa and Frederick's track record, and talents, in preserving their realms from dismemberment, any attempt at forcibly dissolving this union would most likely fail.
 
I think someone actually started a TL with the marriage between Frederick and Maria Theresa as the POD, but it never got past the third update.
 
Prussia is largely an insignificant state at this time, or at least considered to be so. It was them seizing Silesia that put them on the global scene. We know, with the benefit of hind sight, how terrifying a Habsburg-Hohenzollern Union would be, however at the time this wasn't yet understood.

As for the other states potentially opposing the union, let's look at them one by one;

France : Already opposed Maria Theresa coming to the throne of Austria no matter who her husband was. Historically their performance in the war of Austrian Succession was largely on the crap side of mixed, with early successes in Bohemia giving way to disaster in Bavaria, and only a few successes at the end in the Netherlands, for which they received nothing. Without Prussia distracting Austria they will be the primary target, and with Prussian support I expect they'll get their ass kicked.

Russia : I remain skeptical that they would care. They supported Austria in the war historically, and had been long time allies in the War of Polish Succession and the wars against the Turks. I doubt they will oppose the union. What would be more likely is them demanding aid against the Turks and recognition of Russian expansion into the Balkans in exchange for Russian recognition of the Union.

Britain : Will probably not see this union as a threat initially, primarily because of the perceived weakness of Prussia and because Austria is not a Naval Power, and neither is Prussia,. They will be more worried about France getting the Southern Netherlands. With Prussian successes during the war this may change, but I doubt it would be enough to make Britain officially oppose the union.

Sweden : Is currently getting their hesitating ass handed to them in The Hat's War. Even if they weren't, the Golden Age of Sweden has long since passed. Their historical record for wars in this time period was one of consistently getting their face smashed in and losing all of their past gains, primarily to Russia, but also their gains in Pomerania to Prussia.

Denmark : Has been consistently either Neutral or on Austria's side ever since the Habsburgs wrecked their shit during the 30 Years War primarily due to their rivalry with Sweden. Prussia is currently one of Sweden's competitors, having seized parts of Pomerania in the Great Northern War. Denmark likely sits this one out unless Sweden joins, in which case if Denmark joins they likely join against them. In all honesty, if Sweden joins against Austria-Prussia that's probably going to just secure the aid of Russia and Denmark for the Union since the two will love this opportunity to kick Sweden while they are distracted.

Spain : Already opposed to Austria with the goal of conquering Austria's Northern Italian Territories. That's not going to change, and neither will their performance. Historically they secured a decent amount of territory in the form of client states. But with Prussian Support Austria has more resources to shift south. That said I expect Austria will focus more strongly on France if given the opportunity, so Spain likely still comes out with some gains.

Sardinia-Piedmont : Supported Austria, while demanding concessions, because Austria was far less of a threat than what was on the verge of becoming complete Bourbon Encirclement. That's not going to change here. Spain will still be marching north, trying to get Milan. Sardinia-Piedmont will want to prevent this from happening, and so will be on Austria's Side. The Bourbons are the immediate major threat, Austria-Prussia is a distant hypothetical that's generally been on their side.

The Netherlands : Much like Britain is far more worried, and with good cause since the only time this actually happened it gave way to near immediate annexation, about the possibility of a French Controlled Southern Netherlands than they are with Austria gaining the lands of a minor state on the Eastern end of the Holy Roman Empire. They won't oppose the union, they might stay neutral.

Hanover : Is tied to Britain and does whatever they want so Britain's evaluation applies here as well. Even if they were independent Hanover's performance in the wars of this time period generally boiled down to being quickly and easily occupied by whatever continental power was at war with Britain at the time unless Britain had the forces to bail them out or that power was focused elsewhere.

Saxony : Historically already did oppose Austria but didn't do much of anything and eventually went home out of boredom before switching sides where they provided basically nothing to the point that Freddy Prince Junior had no problem just marching entire armies down through Saxony and decisively kicked the ass of Austria and Saxony when they linked up. They might be a bit more encouraged to fight off the union but again didn't really contribute much and with Prussia right next door supporting Austria, they're prospects don't look too good. If anything, I expect the diplomatic situation may secure their neutrality since they would be surrounded by Austria-Prussia and obviously screwed unless France goes up to defend them, which they almost assuredly won't.

Bavaria : Historically had the support of France and still got pounded into the dirt and spent most of the entire war completely occupied by Austria.

What other states are there? Is the Elector of Cologne gonna raise an army? Will Hesse-Darmstadt start yelling? Dear God, maybe Venice will mobilize their !!!4!!! War Galleys! I'm sure Maria and Freddy are quaking in their boots.

In the end, some states will oppose this. Plenty of others will still see this as the Lesser of Two Evils or even a definitive good. This isn't Europa Universalis where countries just cross an arbitrary badboy threshold and then everybody loses their minds. The states that are likely to oppose this already tried to kill Austria historically and Maria Theresa kicked their ass.

P.S.: I disagree with that timeline being well written, if its the one I'm thinking of, because from what I remember the author basically sidelined Maria Theresa to Wank the shit outta Freddy. You can't just shove one of the most talented and strong willed female monarchs in history into the kitchen, that shit aint gonna fly.
 
P.S.: I disagree with that timeline being well written, if its the one I'm thinking of, because from what I remember the author basically sidelined Maria Theresa to Wank the shit outta Freddy. You can't just shove one of the most talented and strong willed female monarchs in history into the kitchen, that shit aint gonna fly.
You know what? You are right! I totaly forget that she didnt plays a role at all in this timeline, expect for being a mother. Neverthless I like it.
 
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