Austro-Hungarian Crown Prince Rudolf Has a Son Rather than Daughter in 1883

CaliGuy

Banned
What if Austro-Hungarian Crown Prince Rudolf would have had a son--rather than a daughter, Elizabeth--in 1883?

For the record, this son--rather than Franz Ferdinand--would have become the heir to the Austro-Hungarian thrones after his father's suicide in 1889.

What kind of personality would Rudolf's son have? Also, what kind of leader would he have become after Franz Joseph's (his grandfather's) death?

Any thoughts on this?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
For the record, I am presuming that this son's personality would be heavily influenced by his grandfather Franz Joseph as well as possibly to some extent by German Kaiser Wilhelm II.
 

Likely FJ still blocks Rudolf from governmental responsibilities, and Rudolf becomes a sort of Friedrich III-figure. That said, he and his wife drifted apart due to their daughter's gender, plus he gave her syphilis as well. Here, they might stay together a bit longer, but I fear the result might be the same. If by some miracle, Rudolf manages to pry some sort of role from his father's fingers, he might not get so depressed that he shoots himself, but considering that he's 3/4 Wittelsbach (his mother being one and his father being half) it might be a case of when rather than if. (The Wittelsbachs of the last generations not exactly known for their mental stability - Ludwig II, Otto, Princess Alexandrine, etc)

As to the son, I don't really know. Sisi hated being a grandmother even more than she did being a mother, so chances are she still acts as OTL. Stephanie doesn't come off really well in Princess Windischgratz' views regarding her maternal duties. So, chances are this little archduke grows up with a rather disinterested family. Of course, FJ might display interest in him - but considering his behaviour with Rudolf didn't exactly win him 'father of the year' awards, Rudolf, is he has any interest in his son, might try to stop his father repeating the same pattern as he did with him. Now, that scenario could be interesting, since Rudolf, was politically his mother's child, liberal-leaning, interested in federalizing the empire etc, which was part of the reason his father distrusted him (nothing personal, Rudi, he distrusted Maxie's liberal leanings as well (courtesy of the British who had proposed Max become king of seceded Hungary in the '50s).

If he's heavily influenced by FJ, who might view him as 'heir presumptive' first and then 'grandson', then I hope that he's got something of FJ's flair for governing. In the emperor's 70-year reign, he was basically the only thing that was holding the empire together. One book describes the Austro-Hungarian empire as "being like a Viennese pastry perched over mid-Europe - it looks pretty, but it's hollow".

As to Wilhelm II influencing him, that depends in what way. FF was friendly with Wilhelm II (IIRC Rudolf too), but are we talking the private pro-English kaiser or the bombastic militaristic public kaiser that influences him? Maybe he sees Wilhelm's militarization and longs for Austro-Hungarian imperial army and navy of his own. Not a bad thing, since same book as before says "Austria fought three wars in the 19th century, but never truly emerged from the 18th". So if it goes for military/naval reform, awesome. Wilhelm's political influence (FJ's too), has the potential for disaster. "A genius of statecraft might've welded these disparate realms together to form a whole, but the emperor [FJ] was no genius, and for the duration of his 70-year reign, he manfully held the empire together"

The kingdoms of the Austro-Hungarian empire are going to want some concessions - probably the same as were given to the Hungarians. There had been an attempt by the Bohemians in 1871 which failed because it was blocked by the Austrian and Hungarian elements in the cabinet. So maybe, somehow, Rudolf manages to get his father to see reason in allowing such a compromise. And we have an Austro-Hungaro-Bohemian empire come WWI
 
If Rudolf had a son likely he will resign himself to be married to Stephanie and to wait for the power until his father's death (but still trying to influence things and going a lot in conflict with his father)
 

CaliGuy

Banned
If Rudolf had a son likely he will resign himself to be married to Stephanie and to wait for the power until his father's death (but still trying to influence things and going a lot in conflict with his father)
To Stephanie? You mean to his mother? :eek:
 
it could be interesting if Rudolf still kills himself, I could see old Franz Joseph dealing with a grandson differently than he dealt with his son or nephews as heirs.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
it could be interesting if Rudolf still kills himself, I could see old Franz Joseph dealing with a grandson differently than he dealt with his son or nephews as heirs.
You mean by having him devote more time to his grandson in order to teach him to be a good ruler once the time comes?
 
To Stephanie? You mean to his mother? :eek:
I was talking about Rudolf and I think that was clear. Stephanie (born princess of Belgium) is the not much loved wife of Rudolf. OTL he tried to have the marriage annulled for being able to remarry and try ho have a son.
 
You mean by having him devote more time to his grandson in order to teach him to be a good ruler once the time comes?

There will be several factors. Guilt over his sons suicide, but also the knowledge that his grandson will become emperor while young, while Rudolf would likely become emperor at his earliest in his late mid age (at least that was the expectency, in reality he would have been 58 when he became emperor, a old man). So Franz Joseph will likely dote on his grandson, while also being busy including him in ruling the empire and everyone in the government will want the emperor to do so to, as they need him to be ready to rule, if Franz Joseph had died earlier than he did.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Likely FJ still blocks Rudolf from governmental responsibilities, and Rudolf becomes a sort of Friedrich III-figure. That said, he and his wife drifted apart due to their daughter's gender, plus he gave her syphilis as well. Here, they might stay together a bit longer, but I fear the result might be the same. If by some miracle, Rudolf manages to pry some sort of role from his father's fingers, he might not get so depressed that he shoots himself, but considering that he's 3/4 Wittelsbach (his mother being one and his father being half) it might be a case of when rather than if. (The Wittelsbachs of the last generations not exactly known for their mental stability - Ludwig II, Otto, Princess Alexandrine, etc)

Interesting point about Rudolf's ancestry possibly leading to his suicide. :(

As to the son, I don't really know. Sisi hated being a grandmother even more than she did being a mother, so chances are she still acts as OTL. Stephanie doesn't come off really well in Princess Windischgratz' views regarding her maternal duties. So, chances are this little archduke grows up with a rather disinterested family. Of course, FJ might display interest in him - but considering his behaviour with Rudolf didn't exactly win him 'father of the year' awards, Rudolf, is he has any interest in his son, might try to stop his father repeating the same pattern as he did with him. Now, that scenario could be interesting, since Rudolf, was politically his mother's child, liberal-leaning, interested in federalizing the empire etc, which was part of the reason his father distrusted him (nothing personal, Rudi, he distrusted Maxie's liberal leanings as well (courtesy of the British who had proposed Max become king of seceded Hungary in the '50s).

Wouldn't Rudolf's views here still be irrelevant if he commits suicide while his son is still very young, though? After all, 1889 - 1883 = 6.

If he's heavily influenced by FJ, who might view him as 'heir presumptive' first and then 'grandson', then I hope that he's got something of FJ's flair for governing. In the emperor's 70-year reign, he was basically the only thing that was holding the empire together. One book describes the Austro-Hungarian empire as "being like a Viennese pastry perched over mid-Europe - it looks pretty, but it's hollow".

Completely agreed. :)

As to Wilhelm II influencing him, that depends in what way. FF was friendly with Wilhelm II (IIRC Rudolf too), but are we talking the private pro-English kaiser or the bombastic militaristic public kaiser that influences him? Maybe he sees Wilhelm's militarization and longs for Austro-Hungarian imperial army and navy of his own. Not a bad thing, since same book as before says "Austria fought three wars in the 19th century, but never truly emerged from the 18th". So if it goes for military/naval reform, awesome. Wilhelm's political influence (FJ's too), has the potential for disaster. "A genius of statecraft might've welded these disparate realms together to form a whole, but the emperor [FJ] was no genius, and for the duration of his 70-year reign, he manfully held the empire together"

We are talking about the Kaiser who wanted Germany to have a "place in the sun."

The kingdoms of the Austro-Hungarian empire are going to want some concessions - probably the same as were given to the Hungarians. There had been an attempt by the Bohemians in 1871 which failed because it was blocked by the Austrian and Hungarian elements in the cabinet. So maybe, somehow, Rudolf manages to get his father to see reason in allowing such a compromise. And we have an Austro-Hungaro-Bohemian empire come WWI

You're assuming that Rudolf survives in this TL, though; frankly, I myself find that doubtful.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
There will be several factors. Guilt over his sons suicide, but also the knowledge that his grandson will become emperor while young, while Rudolf would likely become emperor at his earliest in his late mid age (at least that was the expectency, in reality he would have been 58 when he became emperor, a old man). So Franz Joseph will likely dote on his grandson, while also being busy including him in ruling the empire and everyone in the government will want the emperor to do so to, as they need him to be ready to rule, if Franz Joseph had died earlier than he did.
Makes sense. :)

Also, though, how much do you think that Kaiser Wilhelm II will be able to influence Rudolf's son in this TL?
 
Makes sense. :)

Also, though, how much do you think that Kaiser Wilhelm II will be able to influence Rudolf's son in this TL?

It depends on their personalities, but I lean toward any AH heir will look toward Germany as their model for reforming the Empire. It's pretty obvious that the existing order doesn't work for AH, so the heir won't be reactionary, but he will still fight to keep so much power for the emperor as possible. I think US of Greater Austria are a pipe dream. But maybe we could see the heir being inspired by Bundism based on language.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
It depends on their personalities, but I lean toward any AH heir will look toward Germany as their model for reforming the Empire. It's pretty obvious that the existing order doesn't work for AH, so the heir won't be reactionary, but he will still fight to keep so much power for the emperor as possible. I think US of Greater Austria are a pipe dream. But maybe we could see the heir being inspired by Bundism based on language.
So, autonomous linguistic communities for the various ethnic groups in Austria-Hungary?
 
So, autonomous linguistic communities for the various ethnic groups in Austria-Hungary?

Well it could be that or anything else, it was clear that the empire needed reform, the manner of reforms the young Archduke decides to go after will be pretty much up to the author of the timeline.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Well it could be that or anything else, it was clear that the empire needed reform, the manner of reforms the young Archduke decides to go after will be pretty much up to the author of the timeline.
OK; also, though, what about starting by implementing universal suffrage in Hungary?
 
OK; also, though, what about starting by implementing universal suffrage in Hungary?

The Emperor cant do that - at least not legally. If you really want to attack the hungarians go all out (plan U) or dont do it. Halfmesures like that are bound to fail. Also bear in mind that Croatia had a separate parlaiment and didnt had seats in hungarian parlaiment. And without Croatia according to the hungarian census of 1914 the hungarians had a small majority (54%). And the real problem: my guess is that universal suffrage in Hungary at this time would lead to the socialist being elected. I dont think that the court really would want that.
 
Fascinating thread here, something I can definitely see happening, this kid would likely grow up somewhere between conservative and liberal, depending on how long his father survives.

A question, if this kid is born in 1883, who might he marry?
 
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