Austro-Bavaria

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Deleted member 1487

Is there anyway for these two lands to be united and take a leadership role in uniting Germany?
Bonus points for including the Kingdom of Bohemia.
 
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Two ways:
1. Bavaria is annexed by the Austrian monarchy in 1714 or 1778 after the wars Austria waged against them.

2. Bavaria annexed Austria and Bohemia during the War of the Austrian Succession. Perhaps have the Austrian and Hungarian forces get roflstomped, and Maria Theresa forced to concede her Imperial domains. Could be accomplished with sufficient French and Prussian assistance as well as Charles VII actually, you know, living for a bit.
 

Deleted member 1487

Anything earlier so we can prevent or at least limit Habsburg holdings in Hungary and the Balkans?
 
As stated above, the Austrians several times tried to exchange Bavaria or parts of it against other holdings.

As some sort of redistributing the smaller imperial lands is probably inevitable, the Austrians should gain additional lands in Southern Swabia and Badenia and maybe in Franconia.

The main impact would be that a "Kleindeutsche Lösung" would probably be impossible without these additional German lands. There's just too much lacking.

Another effect is that the fraction of Germans within the Austrian lands increases.
 
Is there anyway for these two lands to be united and take a leadership role in uniting Germany?
Bonus points for including the Kingdom of Bohemia.

Have Austria win the War of Bavarian Succession convincingly and then have Maria Theresa curb stomp Frederick the Great pretty bad and then it can happen.
 
Anything earlier so we can prevent or at least limit Habsburg holdings in Hungary and the Balkans?

wiking

There are probably earlier options as I think the two houses were long-time rivals. However either controlling the other earlier might well draw too much attention from other powers as it potentially makes the emperor [who is virtually certain to come from this house] would be getting two powerful.

It might be easier to have Austria, having taken over Bavaria, lose Hungary at a later date. Say after a defeat by Napoleon. This could make the Austrians more nationalist, both by the defeat and by the lack of many non-Germans, meaning they end up with part of the watch on the Rhine. Especially if Prussia gets more badly mauled in the conflicts. It might be difficult however as Austria is really the only power that can dominate northern Italy, which was the other route the allies wanted to guard against French expansionism, and giving them a role in both.

Alternatively Austria emerges roughly as OTL other than having Bavaria from the Napoleonic wars, then loses Hungary in an 1848 situation. Possibly with a greater German element it finds the east less important and starts turning towards a more nationalist identity. This might also prompt it into reforms [military, political and economic] and make it look weaker, so meaning Prussia challenges it earlier and gets defeated. Austria could then regain Silesia say and partition the Rhineland and emerge as clearly the dominate power in the resulting German empire that is likely to emerge.

Steve
 
How far do you want to go back? ;)

During the 10th century the marches of Istria, Austria, Carinthia (including what would become Styria) and Carniola were considered a part of the Stem Duchy of Bavaria, furthermore Tirol was also a part of Bavaria.
 

Deleted member 1487

Alright, now that we've determined it is feasible for either ruling house to take over, what about a Wittelsbach Austro-Bavarian-Bohemia? Hungary won't be a part of the Empire, so won't it be focused on German affairs and perhaps uniting a power block in the region?
 
Well in my secret timeline, Napoleonic Europe sees Bavaria makes the gains it did, sees Hungary independent under the Esterhazy prince, and eventually Bavaria conquers rump Austria when it has become unstable

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Well in my secret timeline, Napoleonic Europe sees Bavaria makes the gains it did, sees Hungary independent under the Esterhazy prince, and eventually Bavaria conquers rump Austria when it has become unstable

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Speaking of which, what happened with that?
 
Alright, now that we've determined it is feasible for either ruling house to take over, what about a Wittelsbach Austro-Bavarian-Bohemia? Hungary won't be a part of the Empire, so won't it be focused on German affairs and perhaps uniting a power block in the region?

wiking

That depends on what happens in Hungary. If it stays a strong independent state outside Ottoman control possibly. [Although in that case Bohemia is probably going to stay with it]. However if Hungary falls as historically then you're S German state has the Turks at the gate and will have to concentrate considerable forces to guard against further attacks from them. Even if an Hungarian rump stays outside Turkish control as OTL it's likely to need continual support.

Or are you thinking that somehow Hungary becomes detached sometime after the 1699 point when the Turks were driven from it? For some reason set up as an independent state rather than as part of the Wittelsbach empire.

Steve
 

Deleted member 1487

wiking

That depends on what happens in Hungary. If it stays a strong independent state outside Ottoman control possibly. [Although in that case Bohemia is probably going to stay with it]. However if Hungary falls as historically then you're S German state has the Turks at the gate and will have to concentrate considerable forces to guard against further attacks from them. Even if an Hungarian rump stays outside Turkish control as OTL it's likely to need continual support.

Or are you thinking that somehow Hungary becomes detached sometime after the 1699 point when the Turks were driven from it? For some reason set up as an independent state rather than as part of the Wittelsbach empire.

Steve

Perhaps under a separate branch of the family as the Habsburgs did. The Wittelsbachs were fecund IIRC. We then have the German Wittelsbachs and the Balkans ones. Perhaps taking the place of the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family is providing princes for each new state.
 
2. Bavaria annexed Austria and Bohemia during the War of the Austrian Succession. Perhaps have the Austrian and Hungarian forces get roflstomped, and Maria Theresa forced to concede her Imperial domains. Could be accomplished with sufficient French and Prussian assistance as well as Charles VII actually, you know, living for a bit.

Anything earlier so we can prevent or at least limit Habsburg holdings in Hungary and the Balkans?

I assume you're going for a united Austria-Bavaria without Hungary? In which case, Hapsburg's POD would do the trick-the Bavarian claims Austria were based on Maria Theresa being ineligible under Salic Law, which didn't exist in Hungary. (Frederick the Great, who refused to accept Maria Theresa's claims to Austria as legitimate, still refered to her as "Queen of Hungary", since this was the one title she indisputably held) So, if the Bavarians/French/Prussians completely conquer Austria so Bavaria can annex it, then its quite possible for Maria Theresa to still be left ruling an independent Kingdom of Hungary. This would allow Wittelsbach Austria/Bavaria (Austria has the more prestigious title, and the capital will almost certainly be in Vienna) to focus on Germany, and will probably help the Ottomans out greatly, since just plain Hungary is much less intimidating than Austria-Hungary. Heck, if you want to achieve an "Austria unites Germany" scenario, this strikes me as a good POD.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I assume you're going for a united Austria-Bavaria without Hungary? In which case, Hapsburg's POD would do the trick-the Bavarian claims Austria were based on Maria Theresa being ineligible under Salic Law, which didn't exist in Hungary. (Frederick the Great, who refused to accept Maria Theresa's claims to Austria as legitimate, still refered to her as "Queen of Hungary", since this was the one title she indisputably held) So, if the Bavarians/French/Prussians completely conquer Austria so Bavaria can annex it, then its quite possible for Maria Theresa to still be left ruling an independent Kingdom of Hungary. This would allow Wittelsbach Austria/Bavaria (Austria has the more prestigious title, and the capital will almost certainly be in Vienna) to focus on Germany, and will probably help the Ottomans out greatly, since just plain Hungary is much less intimidating than Austria-Hungary. Heck, if you want to achieve an "Austria unites Germany" scenario, this strikes me as a good POD.

I'm not sure it would work for Bohemia, where the title was nominally elective as well; however I could see attempts to drive her out from the Empire besides her burgundian and lombardian estates.
 

Deleted member 1487

Basically I want to see a HRE turn into a united Germany (like the Kaiserreich) after being united by an Austro-Bavarian-Bohemian empire. I'd be pretty happy about OTL Belgium and Netherlands being united with Luxembourg and Cleve at a minimum.
 
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