Austrian Victory in War of Austrian Succession

I think a great way to give Austria a way to improve their position in the conflict would be if they could get Sweden to join on Austria side against promise them part of or the whole of Pomerania. Instead of the Swedes moving the Russian focus away from the conflict with their small war, they would keep the Prussians busy and could weaken them. If the Austrians could also bring the Danes aboard their position would improve even more.

As for Prussian Army, yes it was excellent, but honestly it would have been beaten if it was Austria vs. Prussia. The Swedes are weaker than the Prussians at this point, but they're in a better position thanks to Swedish Pomerania being relative easy to defend and their naval superiority to Prussia. If Austria can convince the Danes to join the war, well oin that case the Danes and Swedes can likely beat the Prussians together. The problem are what to offer the Danes, if Austria could get the Swedes and Russians to accept a Danish annexation of Gottorp and get the British to fund the Danes, the Danes will likely be willing to join.
 
During the first Silesian War Prussia's army didn't perform much better than Austria's atrophied army, just look at the casualties of the battles. I really don't see Fredrick defeating (or even picking a fight with) an Austrian army that wasn't universally (and correctly) recognized as underfunded and behind the curb. Maria surrendered Silesia because the Bavarian invasion of Bohemia and claim to the HRE was a much more pressing issue. Prussia gave a spectacular showing in the Second Silesian War, but I doubt a more competent Austrian Army would allow the Prussian army time to digest the lessons of the first battles that it had OTL thanks to the Treaty of Breslau.

I'm not guaranteeing that Austria would win, but I am saying that they would certainly have the upper hand and a much better ability to draw out the fight if they aren't initially successful.

Thanks for trying to help

I'm not asking what would happen if the Austrians made proper war preparations. I was saying let's suppose the war starts off as normal.

The Bohemia front does like OTL with Prussia gaining Silesia and singing a truce.

In the Caribbean, the French attacks are repulsed by the British, even better than OTL.

On the Italian front the Savoy and Austrians make modest gains and secure a buffer zone around Parma and Milan (the parts they are trying to hold). In the buffer zone, their armies wait for attackers and get some victories, but don't follow up to push South.

On the Netherlands front, the French (somehow... maybe a fog rolls in or an act of god makes the Pragmatic commanders make the right decision for once so their numbers mean something) get beaten by the Pragmatic army so badly if has to leave behind all its cannons to make their getaway.

On the Rhine front, Bavaria is mauled and Lorraine is occupied without too many losses.

On the Mediterranean front, the Savoy and the Austrians occupy 1/4 of the French coastline.

And let's say it's February 1st 1744, with Frederick not yet starting the Second Silesia war. The Hanoverians ask Hapsburgs just to take Lorraine, something for the Savoys some payment from the Pragmatic Violators, and "please don't let this war drag on forever Maria Theresa, let's quit while we're ahead. If you don't quit now, we'll still fight along side you (in OTL they fought on until 1748, so they probably aren't going to abandon their treaty obligations when they are winning), but offensive operations are probably too much (these put a bigger strain on logistics than tactical defense)"

What would the Austrians do? I suggested them proposing both sides trade their gains (Lorraine and French territory for Silesia). Ankh von Hapsburg says they will likely ask for Lorraine rather than trading their gains for Silesia back (even though they want Silesia back), followed by resuming the war against Prussia, without Hannover, Dutch, and British help. Do you think that will happen? I don't consider Maria-Theresa a treaty violator, I would imagine she would at least wait three years before pressing her Silesia claim again, unless Prussia attacks them again.
 
Thanks for trying to help
I'm not asking what would happen if the Austrians made proper war preparations. I was saying let's suppose the war starts off as normal.
My apologies, it wasn't mentioned in the OP so I assumed you were open to any POD.

Ankh von Hapsburg says they will likely ask for Lorraine rather than trading their gains for Silesia back (even though they want Silesia back), followed by resuming the war against Prussia, without Hannover, Dutch, and British help.
Interestingly a passage from the book I've been reading seems to suggest there were some in Britain who were interested in taking land from Prussia. The way the sentence is included leaves a great deal of ambiguity though, and too my knowledge popular opinion in Britain was that continental entanglements were bad (perhaps some felt a bigger Hanover wouldn't need British field armies?). Probably nothing but an interesting thought.

On to the actual matter at hand:
Maria might be unwilling to settle for a negotiated peace at this time given that France and Bavaria (and Saxony and Prussia) had violated the Pragmatic Sanction which they were party to, other than that small bump your scenario is definitely possible. I am curious as to what butterflies you hope to unleash with this. No Spaniards in Italy? Luxembourg wank? Alternate destination for a fleeing Louis XVI? Lorraine in the German Confederation? An Austria that foregoes the Theresian Reforms under the belief that its army is adequate?
 
My apologies, it wasn't mentioned in the OP so I assumed you were open to any POD.

No problem, your information will help me when I do other stuff. I thought though I implied a POD after the start of the war given that I said they would "somehow" win in the Netherlands. They had the numbers and the tactical defense (even if we ignore the Dutch) so any form of proper preparations would have made a victory there fairly likely. I generally do either timeline posts or query posts.

Interestingly a passage from the book I've been reading seems to suggest there were some in Britain who were interested in taking land from Prussia. The way the sentence is included leaves a great deal of ambiguity though, and too my knowledge popular opinion in Britain was that continental entanglements were bad (perhaps some felt a bigger Hanover wouldn't need British field armies?). Probably nothing but an interesting thought.

Hmmm, I thought that an empowered Austria that won the War of Austrian Succession with more land and some payments would be sufficient to bolster the position in Hannover. I'm not sure what the people in that passage are thinking. If they saw the French Revolution coming (which would be ASB as no one saw it coming) a larger Hannover is a good thing

Ironically, England's first personal union with the continent was helpful to the crown, not a liability.

Normandy provided triple the income as the Kingdom of England despite having less people (taxes were low in England by that time's standards). The Kingdom of France, with even more people than England, made the French crown less money than the English got from their kingdom. France collected more taxes, but until the 1500s more of it seemed to disappear, leaving less for the crown than his English counterpart. During the Third Crusade era, the Kings got more income from their personal land (that they would have the same way a count has a county) than their kingdoms.

On to the actual matter at hand:
Maria might be unwilling to settle for a negotiated peace at this time given that France and Bavaria (and Saxony and Prussia) had violated the Pragmatic Sanction which they were party to, other than that small bump your scenario is definitely possible. I am curious as to what butterflies you hope to unleash with this. No Spaniards in Italy? Luxembourg wank? Alternate destination for a fleeing Louis XVI? Lorraine in the German Confederation? An Austria that foregoes the Theresian Reforms under the belief that its army is adequate?

I don't have a particular buttery in mind, it's a query type post. What would the Austrians do in this situation.

I'm not thinking no Spaniards in Italy, they keep Naples and Austrian troops only sacked a few cities, with no intention to hold any land far from the North. That's why I said they only took a buffer zone around what they started the war with.

A Luxemborg wank might be interesting.

I also don't think reforms will be forgone entirely. Let's say they win in Italy because... the Austrian commanders asked their Savoy counterparts "uhhh... none of us know how to lead after Eugene died. This is the battlefield situation, what should I do about it?" The Netherlands campaign will make them a bit more overconfident, but the fact remains that they got beaten by a smaller army against Prussia. The Rhine campaign wouldn't stimulate overconfidence either. Taking land in a counterattack after a victory isn't difficult when the other side took garrison forces and put them in the field army you just sent packing! And beating Bavaria should be easy if the French can't help them. I think reforms will be taken and start at the same time as OTL, but will take longer because they think "we're just a bit behind, nothing a bit of drilling and leadership improvements can't fix"

So you said Maria might be unwilling to settle for a negotiated peace. What would she do in this situation? She can't push for Silesia, as I don't think she's a treaty violated and Prussia didn't reenter the war yet. She can't punish Saxony because at this point they switched sides and gave a token payment as "sorry we broke Pragmatic Sanction, but take this and don't punish us anymore." in OTL she turned down a similar offer when the Bavarians gave Saxony-style offer a few years later. I proposed Lorraine for Silesia since it was the Jewel of Bohemia and she can't take it back militarily unless Prussia re-enters (ok, she can, but she won't be a treaty breaker unlike all the people that fought against her inheritance)
 
So you said Maria might be unwilling to settle for a negotiated peace. What would she do in this situation? She can't push for Silesia, as I don't think she's a treaty violated and Prussia didn't reenter the war yet. She can't punish Saxony because at this point they switched sides and gave a token payment as "sorry we broke Pragmatic Sanction, but take this and don't punish us anymore." in OTL she turned down a similar offer when the Bavarians gave Saxony-style offer a few years later. I proposed Lorraine for Silesia since it was the Jewel of Bohemia and she can't take it back militarily unless Prussia re-enters (ok, she can, but she won't be a treaty breaker unlike all the people that fought against her inheritance)
She might want to continue the war with France. Not with the aim of more territorial gains, but rather with the simple goal further humbling France as and sending the rest of Europe a strong message.
 
She might want to continue the war with France. Not with the aim of more territorial gains, but rather with the simple goal further humbling France as and sending the rest of Europe a strong message.

Ah I see. The only territorial gains I could think of was Lorraine, but continuing the war might humble France and force them to give more "Pragmatic violation fines"

I think the House of Hannover and Savoy would be on board with that idea if the fronts went the way I described. Maybe some of the French cities near Savoy need a sacking?
 
I think the House of Hannover and Savoy would be on board with that idea if the fronts went the way I described. Maybe some of the French cities near Savoy need a sacking?
On that note maybe the Franco-Sardinian/Genoa-Sardinian border could be altered in Sardinia's favour (nothing big, just a few townships). Pair the message "violators of the sanction will be punished" with "loyal allies prosper".
 
In the Caribbean, the French attacks are repulsed by the British, even better than OTL.

The Caribbean were not that important and the British didn't start off too well in War of the Jenkins' Ear with their defeat at Cartagena. But it is possible for the British to take a couple of smaller islands and maybe intercept one of the Spanish treasure fleets though the Spanish did took every precaution they could with these.

On the Italian front the Savoy and Austrians make modest gains and secure a buffer zone around Parma and Milan (the parts they are trying to hold). In the buffer zone, their armies wait for attackers and get some victories, but don't follow up to push South.

On the Mediterranean front, the Savoy and the Austrians occupy 1/4 of the French coastline.

This could be plausible though it would take time. The Austrians and Sardinians managed to protect Milan and Parma against an alliance of France, Spain, Genoa and Naples although only for a while. In 1743 they were still repelling the initial Spanish attack, in 1744 they invaded Naples hoping to retake it as a consolation prize and at one time nearly captured Charles III at Velletri who escaped at the last moment. Changing the commander could help as the OTL commander Lobkowitz wasn't exactly brilliant. Maybe Browne could do better (I think he had the rank of general by that time) or von Liechtenstein. If Carlos of Naples is captured they have a much better footing in Italy and the Royal Navy can support them. OTOH, it's a double-edged sword as the deal at Worms was that if Austria regains Naples, Savoy gets Sicily and that together with Sardinia they already had could make them too powerful in the eyes of Vienna. Anyway, if things go similar as OTL and they retreat from Naples, 1745 could be the decisive year. With a different, more capable commander ITTL, Austro-Sardinians could prevent the merging of a Franco-Spanish army from the Alps under Maillebois and the Bourbon army from the south under de Gages. If they are both defeated and thrown out the stage is set for an invasion into Provence. It would be useful to avoid putting the Marquis Botta d'Adorno in any sort of command in the Austrian army as well since he was responsible for some of their failures. This solution would however drag out the war like OTL.
However, there are two problems here. The first is that an invasion of Provence is extremely difficult logistics-wise and because of the mountainous terrain and it would require massive help from the Royal Navy and British funding together with a full support and coordination with the Sardinians to be able to make any gains in Provence. The second is that the Sardinian king at the time, Charles Emmanuel III, was very good in politics and would've never let the Austrians to become too powerful in Italy or sacrifice too many of his troops for Austrian gains in Provence (which would put them on both sides of Sardinia's borders!) that is if they can get anything there even though everything they theoretically take would probably be given back. He would exert pressure on retaking his old Duchy of Savoy rather than any attacks in Provence and when the talks between him and the Austrians break down he will switch sides as Savoyards were notorious for it. A marriage alliance with getting back Savoy and taking bits of Milan and restoring the balance of power in Italy would be enough to betray them.

On the Netherlands front, the French (somehow... maybe a fog rolls in or an act of god makes the Pragmatic commanders make the right decision for once so their numbers mean something) get beaten by the Pragmatic army so badly if has to leave behind all its cannons to make their getaway.
On the Rhine front, Bavaria is mauled and Lorraine is occupied without too many losses.

As I said, with commanders like OTL (damn, it seems half the war depends on who is leading the army) there is no way for an effective cooperation between the Allies. Besides, there are other factors that go in France's favour. The Barrier forts are not in a good state, there isn't too much money (Britain still wasn't as rich as in the early 19th century) and the Dutch were very divided on the war. They officially declared it only in 1746 or '47 (not sure right now) and they contributed troops in 1744 only after the British forced them and even then neither of the allies deployed as much troops as they should have. Invasion of Alsace and Lorraine is possible, but requires a lot resources. They could have campaigned in the Flanders but Maria Theresa wanted her army as far away from the English as possible and to regain her husband's duchy. But the problem is that it's a huge territory and a large army is need to defeat the French there while at the same time the French have numerical superiority and can at the same time cut off the Austrians from the Rhine and surround them completely without reducing any of the armies in other theatres. And also, by the time the Austrians can take anything, even with capable commanders like Traun and Nadasdy who were IOTL responsible for any of the successes the Lorraine campaign had, Prussia will rejoin the war. No matter how much diplomatically threatened, the Austrian successes (alliance with Savoy, victories in Italy and on the Rhine) Frederick will attack Bohemia again not just because he's greedy but also to secure his conquest and to prevent Austria from growing again and coming after him later on which is exactly what he did. Bavaria can easily be mauled even if fighting Prussia at the same time, but Austria simply couldn't realistically occupy Lorraine without too many losses maybe only if it was Austria with France one on one. It's just too difficult from logistical and strategic viewpoints.
As for the Flanders campaign it's possible to give the allies a victory but not a decisive one. Replace both Charles of Lorraine and the Duke of Cumberland and with some additional luck you could have a chance but at best you could limit the French conquests too some small territories along the border. If the war drags out the French will start getting the upper hand but the British and the Dutch could possibly offer a bribe high enough to the Russian Empress who can send an army to the Rhine. That will force the French to abandon their plans.
And, if in some twisted world the Austrians somehow incredibly take Lorraine AND keep it, they can't exchange it for Silesia. Frederick would never accept that...

I think a great way to give Austria a way to improve their position in the conflict would be if they could get Sweden to join on Austria side against promise them part of or the whole of Pomerania. Instead of the Swedes moving the Russian focus away from the conflict with their small war, they would keep the Prussians busy and could weaken them. If the Austrians could also bring the Danes aboard their position would improve even more.

As for Prussian Army, yes it was excellent, but honestly it would have been beaten if it was Austria vs. Prussia. The Swedes are weaker than the Prussians at this point, but they're in a better position thanks to Swedish Pomerania being relative easy to defend and their naval superiority to Prussia. If Austria can convince the Danes to join the war, well oin that case the Danes and Swedes can likely beat the Prussians together. The problem are what to offer the Danes, if Austria could get the Swedes and Russians to accept a Danish annexation of Gottorp and get the British to fund the Danes, the Danes will likely be willing to join.

Getting the Swedes on the side of Pragmatic Alliance would require a POD back in the 1730s and some interesting politicking in Stockholm. At the time of this war the Hats' party ruled and they were heavily pro-French. As for the Danes they did "rent-out" a contingent of troops to Hanover that were supposed to protect it in case of a Prussian invasion but the Danes were more interested in the Baltic and the upcoming Swedish elections for the next king and were actually pretty good at avoiding wars at this time. Besides what could they gain from this anyway?
 
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