Austrian Hapsburg Netherlands-do they still become a colonizing power?

Thomas1195

Banned
As the success of the British showed, being an expansionist colonial/sea power requires a safe homeland.
And the British did spend a lot of money on funding the armies of their allies.
Britain is an island. Besides, Britain and Dutch IOTL funds allies in only conflicts fhat are related to her interests. ITTL, Habsburg would have milked them to bankroll their Ottoman wars.

Also, ITTL, Britain would have dominated the sea earlier, due to a weaker Netherlands navy and merchant marine. Especially, Britain in the form of Commonwealth of England would have had a field day against them in a naval war, instead of a tough fight like IOTL. It would have grabbed all the valuable colonies before the Netherlands even got their act together. For example, both New York and Suriname would have become English colonies. Worse, it could have pirated TTL Netherlands merchant marine to death.
 
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Britain is an island. Besides, Britain and Dutch IOTL funds allies in only conflicts fhat are related to her interests. ITTL, Habsburg would have milked them to bankroll their Ottoman wars.

Also, ITTL, Britain would have dominated the sea earlier, due to a weaker Netherlands navy and merchant marine. Especially, Britain in the form of Commonwealth of England would have had a field day against them in a naval war, instead of a tough fight like IOTL. It would have grabbed all the valuable colonies before the Netherlands even got their act together. For example, both New York and Suriname would have become English colonies. Worse, it could have pirated TTL Netherlands merchant marine to death.

It really depends on who is leading England. Under Henry VIII, the amount of investment in shipping greatly declined and remained flat during the reigns of Edward VI and Mary I. Henry VII had taken interest in overseas exploration, and it seems that merchants in Bristol were the much more interested in overseas trade than those in London. Though his son, Henry VIII's focus on the continent and his wars made it so that England would have to eventually debase its currency meaning little was left for exploration. France's kings too were distracted by wars in Europe and these were probably leading factors in the relative disinterest in overseas exploration and expansion in both England and France.

Under Henry VIII and his immeadiate successors, English shipping had declined a great so that by the mid XVI century English ships no longer went to the Mediterranean or the Baltic, and over half of all English trade was carried out by Flemish and German merchants funneling English woollens through Antwerp to the Baltic, Germany and even the Mediterranean. It would not be until Antwerp fell, and really began to expand after 1576 and this expansion continued into the 1580s and beyond. However, Guiana is interesting because the Puritians who would eventually sail the Mayflower had originally sought to establish themselves in Guiana rather than North America.
 
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But what is most in the Dutch interest is peace with France. Their golden age occurred during the Franco-Dutch alliance. That was a mutually beneficial arrangement, with the leading land and sea powers on the same side. The breakdown of that alliance hurt both countries but especially the Netherlands.

The problem with Habsburg rule is that it basically guarantees conflict with France. The Dutch have to constantly be in fear of French invasion and the Austrian army may not be able to defend them easily due to logistics (as it struggled to defend Belgium in the wars OTL).

Conflicts with France predated the arrival of the Habsburgs in the region and continued after their departure.
Habsburg or not, the wealthy, but weaker Netherlands would remain a target of French expansionism.
An alliance with the leading power of Germany would contain it.

Britain is an island. Besides, Britain and Dutch IOTL funds allies in only conflicts fhat are related to her interests. ITTL, Habsburg would have milked them to bankroll their Ottoman wars.

The sooner the Austrians can resolve the conflicts in the east in their favour, the more they can focus on the west which would be needed as the absence of Spanish Netherlands means less/no Spanish involvement in the defense against France.

Also, ITTL, Britain would have dominated the sea earlier, due to weaker Netherlands navy and merchant marine. It would grab all the valuable colonies before the Netherlands even got their act together. For example, both New York and Suriname would have become English colonies.

British dominance would be delayed/averted as a certain event would not happen.

And don't forget the Glorious Revolution at the expense of the Dutch.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
British dominance would be delayed/averted as a certain event would not happen
There would be an English Civil War, it did not depend on what happened in the Low Countries. The TTL Netherlands would most likely lose all of their colonies in a war with the English Commonwealth. And if Restoration still occurs, since the Stuarts were full of idiots, there would be a form of Glorious Revolution, and most likely a second Republic would be formed.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
ooner the Austrians can resolve the conflicts in the east in their favour
The Ottoman was no slouch at that time, and given the fact that Austria kept slipping on banana peel and lost winnable battles until 1688 IOTL, there is no guarantee that they would wrap up the conflict earlier.

Oh, and a nastier Reformation war could occur within the Netherlands itself during an ATL 30 Years' War ITTL. Either Catholic Dutch fighting Protestant Dutch (the OTL independent Dutch policy of religious tolerance might not exist), or some Swedish bois ravaging the Low Countries, or both.
 
There would be an English Civil War, it did not depend on what happened in the Low Countries. The TTL Netherlands would most likely lose all of their colonies in a war with the English Commonwealth. And if Restoration still occurs, since the Stuarts were full of idiots, there would be a form of Glorious Revolution, and most likely a second Republic would be formed.

United Austrian Habsburg Netherlands and no 80 Years' War would butterfly the English conflicts of that era as we know them.

The Ottoman was no slouch at that time, and given the fact that Austria kept slipping on banana peel and lost winnable battles until 1688 IOTL, there is no guarantee that they would wrap up the conflict earlier.

The pro-Imperials were already winning during the Turkish war in the 1660s and without the need to focus on the French threat, they could have used their victories to regain territory as they did during the Great Turkish War.
Fewer/less distracting conflict in the West of the HRE combined with significant Burgundian contribution (as per the Burgundian treaty of 1548) could have allowed them to do that several decades sooner than IOTL.
 
The bulk of dutch trade was within Europe itself. The VOC offered the biggest profitmargin (if the journey was succesfull) but trade with non European areas comprised only about 10% of the total trade volume. 50 % of the trade was with the baltic sea area, grain and wood. The northern provinces were already increasing their competion there from the 15th century. You can see this in agriculture, where they were switching from grain to commercial products. And this is IMO the main reason for the naval success. The south (Antwerp) was the main trade and financial center and the staplemarket, but they did let others do the transporting job. They relied more and more on northern shipping. The interesting thing is that this developement was independent of the political developments. In a way the northern had to do this. Their clay land which they had reclaimed in the high middle ages, was losing it's fertility, cause the land dried out slowly. The grain produced was not enough anymore to feed the population. This is why they started to trade with Polish nobles, who were just increasing their grain surplusses. Before long they were entirely dependent on this trade, and it remained the most important trade of the Republic during it's existence.
The Dutch benefited the most by having free trade in Europe and therefore the dutch were top dog as long as the two main competitors, France and England were more busy with internal struggles than implementing mercantilistic measures. As soon as those two created more internal stability, they started to overshadow the republic.
There would be an English Civil War, it did not depend on what happened in the Low Countries. The TTL Netherlands would most likely lose all of their colonies in a war with the English Commonwealth. And if Restoration still occurs, since the Stuarts were full of idiots, there would be a form of Glorious Revolution, and most likely a second Republic would be formed.
One of the main reasons of the success of the glorious revolution was that a foreign nation intervened and settled the kings perogatives issue that had haunted british politics for decades. No intervention, or even worse intervention from France will mean it will take decades more to settle or it will mean a permanent damage to british trade, as this weakens the voice of merchants in politics. England will have much more trouble in it's competition with France.
Sure, it could be more secure, but it would not be a sea power and a colonial expansionist like it was IOTL. There is trade-off. Those damn Austrian -Ottoman wars (zero relevance to Dutch interest) would be very costly, and the Netherlands obviously would be a cash cow.
Zero relevance, no. That depends if in a peacetreaty there will be some exclusive trading clauses. But i can agree that a break between the Netherlands and the Habsburgs can easily occur over the financing of the wars.

I wonder though if with Austrian mercantilistic measurements Dutch european trade dominance could exist in the first place, and if it would exist longer. I'm inclined to say yes to the first question, because the foundations for the success were already laid by the 1550's. They were already heavy outcompeting the Hanze and the Italians. The second question i think no, although i also could see a scenario where you have an English, a French and a Dutch-German trading bloc.
 
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