Austrian dominated Germany?

How could the German states be united under Austria instead of Prussia? What POD could lead to this? And what would an Austrian dominated Germany look like?
 

Susano

Banned
How could the German states be united under Austria instead of Prussia? What POD could lead to this? And what would an Austrian dominated Germany look like?

The Großdeutsche Lösung is difficult, because of Habsburg's territories outside of Germany. Of course, it could conviniently lose them to the 1848 Hungarian Revolution, but then Austria would be no Great Power anymore and not in any position to dominate anything. For a time in 1848 Austria "advocated" the Großösterreichische Lösung: Germany including Austria+Hungary. I put it in "" because it didnt want that to happen, it was just their preferred outcome if it came to any unification. But 1848 was doomed and decided for the Kleindeutsche Lösung anyways.

A PoD of Austria simply winning the German War of 1866 is not enough. The result would simply be a restored German Confederation, and no unification.

Hm, maybe if there wa ssome sort of impetus for the GermanConfederation to slowly unifiy from the beginning,... Austria dominated the GC, so one could say that would be an Austria-dominated and Austria-united Germany then...
 
Of course, it might be easier if it was about Habsburg-united Germany, as opposed to Austria-united Germany...

Susano, didn't the Grossösterreichische Lösung include Bohemia-Moravia?
Or, possibly, being inconsistent about it, I don't quite remember...
 

Susano

Banned
Susano, didn't the Grossösterreichische Lösung include Bohemia-Moravia?
Or, possibly, being inconsistent about it, I don't quite remember...
Bohemia (with Moravia) was inside the GC anyways, so the Großdeutsche Lösung alone would include it ;)

And I think we can pretty much equate Habsburg and Austria here. Austria before the Ausgleich referred to all lands of the Habsburg mainline.
 
Bohemia (with Moravia) was inside the GC anyways, so the Großdeutsche Lösung alone would include it ;)

And I think we can pretty much equate Habsburg and Austria here. Austria before the Ausgleich referred to all lands of the Habsburg mainline.
Well, I was thinking that it might be possible to salvage the HRE, with the Habsburgs in charge...
There's no limit on how early the POD can be, after all...
 

Susano

Banned
Well, I was thinking that it might be possible to salvage the HRE, with the Habsburgs in charge...
There's no limit on how early the POD can be, after all...

There de facto is - You cant have a German unification if Germany isnt disunited, and technically the HREGN wasnt ;) I think a slow pulling together of the HREGn would have to go in an own thread.
 
There de facto is - You cant have a German unification if Germany isnt disunited, and technically the HREGN wasnt ;) I think a slow pulling together of the HREGn would have to go in an own thread.
Well, de jure you can't.
But, since, in the later years, the HREGN was, uh, well, only technically united, I guessed it might be possible to reverse the development somehow...
And then it would be a de facto unification, though not a de jure one.
 
I think that if you have Charles V divide his empire up differently then you might be able to yield a good jumping off point for a Hapsburg (not Austrian) unified Germany.

Charles V decided that his Burgundian inheritance, despite being inside the HRE, should go to his son Philip II and thus to Spain. I would hazard to say that this was something of a mistake. The Spanish-raised Philip II was ill-suited to ruling the Burgundian inheritance, and it doesn't really seem to makes sense from a grand strategy perspective to give it to him.

Now consider instead if Charles V had left the Burgundian inheritance to his brother Ferdinand. Now Ferdinand possesses large holdings in the east (Austria) and the west (the Burgundian inheritance) of the HRE. I think that with this change you would create some major league butterflies that could very easily lead to a Hapsburg united Germany. Consider: This set-up, with control of a wealthy western province and a well-endowed eastern province, is very similar to the Prussian situation nearly 300 years later.

I actually think that if the Burgundian inheritance is kept in the Austrian Hapsburgs' hands there is a chance that they would move their capital west to Antwerp. The city is wealthy, cosmopolitan, and well out of reach of the Turks. With the Austrian Hapsburgs in a western capital they will be able to be more focused on politics within the HRE and in Europe. The Turkish frontier can be left to the younger brother/cousin. If we have this removed capital its even possible that Vienna could fall (with a less determined Hapsburg/ less dire outcome for the dynasty, ie Vienna falling does mean the end of the Hapsburgs-in-the-HRE). With Vienna having fallen, the German princes may suddenly be feeling more patriotic about Germany and less concerned about their liberties, and a politically adept Hapsburg Emperor could gain power from leading a successful German crusade.

In any event, I think that this would keep what we now know as the "Netherlands" inside of "Germany". Maybe we see Matthias Hapsburg actually make the leap in Antwerp and become a Lutheran?

Anyway, I think that Charles V giving the Burgundian inheritance to his brother Ferdinand, rather than his son Philip II, is an excellent POD from which to launch a "Hapsburg united Germany" thread.
 
Well, if you can go into the 18th century for a POD how about the Tsarina doesn't die, Frederick the Great doesn't get his miracle, the coalition holds together and Prussia gets its arse handed to it on a plate ?

Thus, a weaker Prussia, no loss of the bulk of Silesia on Austria's part, but other events could still bring around the French Revolution etc. Of course, a weaker Prussia and a stronger Austria would change the face of the Napoleonic Wars, but wouldn't necessary change the general outcome

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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