Australia get's HMS Hermes

[Russell]

If you purchase TSR-2, and Phantom, there would still be the requirement to replace the Lightning's in the mid/late 1980's.

So there is room for a UK Designed and built fighter still. If this aircraft is still in production in the mid/late 1990's it could be used to replace Phantom as well.

I'm not arguing against the fact that the Lightning will have to be replaced. The problem is that in OTL if the British military effectivly buys American through the 60's and 70's, very little funding will be spent on domestic aviation development. Without the Jaguar and Tornado from the late 60's to the early 80's to bridge the development gap the British aviation industry is very unlikley to have the skills and existing resources to work from to develop such an aircraft on their own. Britain may have to run cap in hand to the French and ask for a partnership to one of their designs.

While in OTL the TSR-2 and the Tornado may not have been great projects and may have done considerable damage to the British aviation industry they did have the effect of preserving technology and skills throughout an economically difficult period.

Saab, CASA and Fokker come to my mind.

Or, to have Airbus as purely British and French thing, no Germans and others...

Why would it have to be the French and not the Germans? True enough France still has a better aviation industry than Germany but who builds what will come down to matters of politics and during the 70's Britains relations with France were cooler than they had been during the late 60's. It could even start out as a join project between Hawker Siddeley and BAC.

Russell

 

[StevoJH]

I'm not arguing against the fact that the Lightning will have to be replaced. The problem is that in OTL if the British military effectivly buys American through the 60's and 70's, very little funding will be spent on domestic aviation development. Without the Jaguar and Tornado from the late 60's to the early 80's to bridge the development gap the British aviation industry is very unlikley to have the skills and existing resources to work from to develop such an aircraft on their own. Britain may have to run cap in hand to the French and ask for a partnership to one of their designs.

While in OTL the TSR-2 and the Tornado may not have been great projects and may have done considerable damage to the British aviation industry they did have the effect of preserving technology and skills throughout an economically difficult period.

I'm saying, buy TSR-2, and then start development on a fighter to start entering service in the mid-late 1980's to replace first the Lightning and then the F4.

How would that kill the UK Aviation industry?

 

[abc123]

While in OTL the TSR-2 and the Tornado may not have been great projects and may have done considerable damage to the British aviation industry they did have the effect of preserving technology and skills throughout an economically difficult period.



Why would it have to be the French and not the Germans? True enough France still has a better aviation industry than Germany but who builds what will come down to matters of politics and during the 70's Britains relations with France were cooler than they had been during the late 60's. It could even start out as a join project between Hawker Siddeley and BAC.

Russell

That idea ( about joint project between HS and BAC ) has some merits. About Jaguar, well, if we allready go in development of supersonic aircraft, let's go all the way, and make supersonic multi-role aircraft. It might take little more time and cost more, but at the end you would get a entirely British product that you can export and money stays in Britain.

In the meantime, small number of Phantoms could maybe be bought to replace Hunters and early models of Lightnings.

 

[Russell]

I'm saying, buy TSR-2, and then start development on a fighter to start entering service in the mid-late 1980's to replace first the Lightning and then the F4.

How would that kill the UK Aviation industry?

Because thats a 15-20 year developmental period for a fighter aircraft (if done from the late 60's to the early 80's. Now that may be a common problem today but back in the 70's such a long developmental period would not by anticipated by the powers that be. They would be expecting a development period of no more than a decade, so the late 70's at earliest. That still a 10 year period without any significant development. It could be even longer. In OTL the RAF's Phantoms effectivly replaced the Lightnings in their role as interceptor during the late 80's. With those aircraft expected to serve into the early to mid 90's in that role, development of a replacement might not even begin until the early 80's. Thats over a decade without any considerable aviation investment.

Russell

 

[abc123]

Because thats a 15-20 year developmental period for a fighter aircraft (if done from the late 60's to the early 80's. Now that may be a common problem today but back in the 70's such a long developmental period would not by anticipated by the powers that be. They would be expecting a development period of no more than a decade, so the late 70's at earliest. That still a 10 year period without any significant development. It could be even longer. In OTL the RAF's Phantoms effectivly replaced the Lightnings in their role as interceptor during the late 80's. With those aircraft expected to serve into the early to mid 90's in that role, development of a replacement might not even begin until the early 80's. Thats over a decade without any considerable aviation investment.

Russell

So, what to do if we want:

a) save as much money as possible
b) save british aerospace industry
c) that RAF and FAA get the best possible aircrafts for the buck?

 

[Riain]

To be fair the lightning shouldn't have lasted so long, especially with such antiquated electronics, it would be totally acceptable to have it replaced in the very late 70s/early 80s therefore the design work occur from say 1973. India's Jaguar buy could be the large export customer such a plane would need to get production happening, but I wonder what sort of plane it will be because it will also have to replace RN Buccs and Phantoms.

 

[abc123]

To be fair the lightning shouldn't have lasted so long, especially with such antiquated electronics, it would be totally acceptable to have it replaced in the very late 70s/early 80s therefore the design work occur from say 1973. India's Jaguar buy could be the large export customer such a plane would need to get production happening, but I wonder what sort of plane it will be because it will also have to replace RN Buccs and Phantoms.

Well, obviously it would need to be something like improved Phantom. Multi-role aircraft, relativly simple ( keep it simple stupid ) and relativly cheap all-singing-all-dancing thing to attract as much foreign customers.

 

[Riain]

And it has to be carrier capable to give it the biggest home market.

Te problem of course is that somethign that will displace/replace the phantom will hae to be a long ranged, all weather BVR capable fighter in the class of the F14/15, and that shit costs. Not that that is too much of a problem since the British home market would be all remaining Lightnings, the entire RN-FAA and RAF Phantoms in that order, possibly 300 aircraft. Maybe later an F15E-esque version will replace the TSR2, for another 150 planes, and a productin run spanning 15-20 years.

I struggle to see export customers for such an awesome plane, but I suppose in a world where Britain is such a power she will have clients for her weapons.

 

[abc123]

And it has to be carrier capable to give it the biggest home market.

Te problem of course is that somethign that will displace/replace the phantom will hae to be a long ranged, all weather BVR capable fighter in the class of the F14/15, and that shit costs. Not that that is too much of a problem since the British home market would be all remaining Lightnings, the entire RN-FAA and RAF Phantoms in that order, possibly 300 aircraft. Maybe later an F15E-esque version will replace the TSR2, for another 150 planes, and a productin run spanning 15-20 years.

I struggle to see export customers for such an awesome plane, but I suppose in a world where Britain is such a power she will have clients for her weapons.

If we make something like Mirage 4000 or combination of Rafale with Typhoon's engines, you could get top aircraft, that would be expencive trough...
But, even with only UK market, big production should make him affordable...

 

[Russell]

Back on the original topic, using Shipbucket I’ve done a potential modification that Australia could have done using a Centaur class hull. The design takes onboard lessons learnt from the rebuild of HMS Hermes such as a wider angled deck, a deck edge elevator but on the starboard side (as opposed to port which the RN found unsatisfactory) and two 44m catapults (Hermes steam boilers could not support any longer cats, nor are they required for the size of aircraft that are going to be operated). Also, the use of one bow and one waist catapult allows for the freeing up of more deck space for aircraft parking, something that was a problem on most of Britains aircraft carriers.

Russell