Australia focusing on Vietnam.

Would Australia's relations with Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand and Britain suffer if we focussed on Vietnam from 1966? By focused I mean 79sqn Sabre being moved to Vietnam as their role in Thailand became marginalised, and perhaps being reinforced at the expanse of Malaysian based Sabre units. Further the HMAS Melboure could play an active part in the war, either with dedicated war cruises or conducting airstrikes with its CAG during it's escorting runs, rather than focusing on exercises. Other RAN ships stationed in Singapore during the period could be deployed to Vietnam instead, maybe in the south if the war in the north is too hot.

These sorts of deployments would directly reduce the forces available to defend our S.E.A. allies, but would our willingness to undertake operations against the Communist threat (the reason behind the alliances) offset this and be acceptable? Or would be be seen as belligerent and therefore an object of suspiscion among our allies in S.E.A.?
 

Cook

Banned
Aren’t you overlooking the threat posed by Communist insurgents to Malaysia?

It would hardly have been in Australia’s strategic interests for South Vietnam to have survived and Malaysia to have fallen.
 
The Emergency was declared over in 1960 and IMHO the second Malayan Emergency was a non event. The Konfrontasi ended in 1966, neither were enough to stop us sending the bulk of our active Army to Vietnam.
 

Cook

Banned
These sorts of deployments would directly reduce the forces available to defend our S.E.A. allies...

I would have thought that less than twenty years after Australia had found itself in the embarrassing position of having a very powerful Army, Navy and Air force all on the wrong side of the world when they were needed would strongly argue in favour of a more balanced defence posture within Australian defence circles, never mind what our S.E. Asian allies might think.
 
I'm thinking of a TL with PoD of WW2 such as Greece, Malaya, Churchil-Curtin over sending the AIF to Ceylon, the Geneals war in the islands and the Cladwell RAAF mutiny.
 
Bump for a tanget.

If the govt did decide to focus on Vietnam would any new toys be procured?

IIUC the RAAF looked at the AH1G for Vietnam but this was cancelled, so this could be a start. Similary the CH47C Chinooks were first delivered in 1973 as a result of Vietnam experience.

If Mirages were deployed from 1967-8 to replace Sabres would they be fitted would better AAMs, IFR probes and would we buy tankers in the early 70s instead of late 80s?

If the RAN had kept 2 or 3 ships off Vietnam at all times would we have bought the Perry class FFGs in the 70s or something else, and would we have waited for 15 years to put a helicopter on it?

If the Centurions were deployed in early 1966 (OTL early '68) with the creation of the task force would they be updated with a deisel engine and 105mm gun? Or would we get a new tank sooner, perhaps Leopards could go to Vietnam in the closing stages?

Any thoughts?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
If the Centurions were deployed in early 1966 (OTL early '68) with the creation of the task force would they be updated with a deisel engine and 105mm gun? Or would we get a new tank sooner, perhaps Leopards could go to Vietnam in the closing stages?

Any thoughts?

I know this is probably going to sound suspect coming from me, but taking into account Australia's Canadian-like habit of shortchanging it's military the Centurions might end up staying around a la Israel, South Africa, Denmark, and Canada. Hell, the Canadians had them until the 70s and look what they went through up north.
 

Cook

Banned
Riain should never have used the C word; Mac is going to need to change his trousers at the rate this is going.
:p
 
Maybe the Centurions could get their upgrade in 65 or 66 as a result of the spending spree bought on by the Konfrontasi. This spree saw the DDGs, F111s, Skyhawk/Tracker CAG, Bloodhound SAM for starters.

Is there a good diesel engine and automatic transmission available for the Cent in 1963-4?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Is there a good diesel engine and automatic transmission available for the Cent in 1963-4?

There was a 650 hp diesel available on the Mk. 5.

But doing some checking around, the Centurions the Australians deployed to Vietnam were Mk. 5/1s with 20 pounders (the forerunner to the L7 105mm) and a similar engine.

So I'll do some digging to see what the Mk. 7s and 9s had.
 
I could see Australia getting closer to the US and further from the UK. It's likely to mean the F111s arrive sooner, they maybe ditch the SLR and pick up the M16 sooner. It would mean no AUSAUG fiasco though.

Maybe the Australian Republic referendum goes a different way?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I could see Australia getting closer to the US and further from the UK. It's likely to mean the F111s arrive sooner, they maybe ditch the SLR and pick up the M16 sooner. It would mean no AUSAUG fiasco though.

Maybe the Australian Republic referendum goes a different way?

I don't know about that. Canada's defence industry's been Americentric for decades and it's still part of the Commonwealth.
 
Virtually all Cents used the 650hp Meteor V12 petrol engine, a low compression Merlin. For a decent upgrade you'd need 720+ hp diesel and preferably a good automatic transmission. I think the M60s engine is in production that early, but don't know about a good tranny, I think the M60s tranny wasn't much chop, perhaps the Leopard1 or the AMX30 trannys.

As for the war ending up the same, there are dozens of potential ending scenarios, many of them substantially better than OTL. I'd like to see an ending point which doesn't involve so many deaths to Australian mines re-planted from that bloody field. I'd also like to see an end point where Australia can deploy a national expeditionary force with the full gamut of capabilities and operate as a seamless national force without recourse to other allies things like AEW, IFR and the like.
 

Cook

Banned
I could see Australia getting closer to the US and further from the UK. It's likely to mean the F111s arrive sooner, they maybe ditch the SLR and pick up the M16 sooner. It would mean no AUSAUG fiasco though.

Maybe the Australian Republic referendum goes a different way?


Australia retained a sentimental attachment to Britain but politicly was ‘All the way with LBJ’.

The F-111 was delayed by development problems, Australia had wanted them earlier. The RAAF leased F-4 Phantoms during the interim.

The SLR proved itself very effective, even if a bit long.

Republic Referendums in Australia face a problem: ‘If the Bicycle works, don’t fix it.’

I'd like to see an ending point which doesn't involve so many deaths to Australian mines re-planted from that bloody field.


Raian’s referring to a mine field laid in Phouc Tuy Province like a mini Maginot Line.

That minefield is so inconsistent with Australian War doctrine you have to wonder where the idea came from.

 
I've been on holidays for a fortnight, thus the late reply/bump. 79sqn Sabres were deployed to Thailand in 1962 due to a perceived threat but by 1965 the reason had morphed into indirect support for Vietnam, but the RAAF restrictive ROE meant the USAF marginalised the sqn, so it was a bit redundant for 2 years before being withdrawn for replacement by the Mirage.

The ATFV chose Phoc Tuy province because it could be supported directly by Australian resources and would enable the TF to be evacuated with Australian resources in the event of a disaster.

So WI these 2 factors combined to cause the redeployment of 79sqn to Vietnam in April 1966. The rationale being to provide aircover from Australian resources by using a sqn that was being marginalised in Thailand? I imagine that 79sqn would directly support the ATFV, how would this affect RAAF-Army relations going forward? What would happen in 1968 when all Mirages were delivered, would a Mirgae sqn be sent to Vietnam, or perhaps Thailand?
 
In the OTL the RAAF wanted to deploy a Mirage III squadron to Thailand to support the USAF. However the French government informed the Australian government that they would withold the technical support if a Mirage sqn was deployed. Hence no chance for a RAAF ace and consequently no French arms purchases since.
 
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