Australia buys 2 Lion class BC`s .Canada buys HMS Canada .Affects on WNT and WWII .

Assume that as a counter to the large Japanese fleet Australia chooses to buy the two Lion class Battlecruisers from the Royal navy along with a few Cruisers and Destroyers to support them while Canada buys HMS Canada or another suitable ship such as Erin or Agincourt along with supporting ships .
What would the effects on the Washington Naval Treaty in 1922 be ?Would the Dominions get separate fleets or would they have to scrap them ?If they did not what would the affects be ?
And finally how could these ships be put to use in the second world war ?I assume Australia and Victoria (The names I think most likely to be given to the Aussie ships) would be used mostly in the Pacific maybe as escorts to a lone carrier sent by the RN to protect the DEI from Japanese aggression .
As for the Canada ?She might be deployed with the Home fleet or could be sent to the Mediterranean and fight the Italian BB`s .
Or more interesting what if she was sent to fight Bismark instead of PoW so instead of the lone German leviathan facing fire from only the lone Hood she had to contend with fire from two large and well trained Battleships ?
Maybe the mighty `ood lives and is made a museum at wars end and today sits alongside HMS Victory ?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The naval treaty system specified that "Dominion" ships counted against

Assume that as a counter to the large Japanese fleet Australia chooses to buy the two Lion class Battlecruisers from the Royal navy along with a few Cruisers and Destroyers to support them while Canada buys HMS Canada or another suitable ship such as Erin or Agincourt along with supporting ships .
What would the effects on the Washington Naval Treaty in 1922 be ?Would the Dominions get separate fleets or would they have to scrap them ?If they did not what would the affects be ?
And finally how could these ships be put to use in the second world war ?I assume Australia and Victoria (The names I think most likely to be given to the Aussie ships) would be used mostly in the Pacific maybe as escorts to a lone carrier sent by the RN to protect the DEI from Japanese aggression . As for the Canada ?She might be deployed with the Home fleet or could be sent to the Mediterranean and fight the Italian BB`s .
Or more interesting what if she was sent to fight Bismark instead of PoW so instead of the lone German leviathan facing fire from only the lone Hood she had to contend with fire from two large and well trained Battleships ?
Maybe the mighty `ood lives and is made a museum at wars end and today sits alongside HMS Victory ?

The naval treaty system specified that "Dominion" ships counted against the British totals. Keeping any of these vessels would mean scrapping newer and more effective capital ships.

It was in Britain's interests, of course; these were not particularly useful designs by the 1920s, and the obvious US counter of creating something like a "Filipino Commonwealth Navy" was avoided.

The Chileans had paid for Latorre, after all, and wanted the ship. A transfer of the two surviving Lions by the British to an independent ally (France, for example) in 1919-20, however, could have some interesting ripples.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Have to be before the treaty negotiations started, so

talking about the DEI, what if they were sold to netherlands for use in the DEI

Have to be before the treaty negotiations started, so really, 1919 is about as late as one could realistically go ... and the French, at least, were allies during the Great War, and had suspended their building program (leaving a lot of half-built obsolescent designs on the slipways by 1919), so one can - almost - make an argument for it...

Of course, the British also have to be willing to transfer some of their newest units for it to make any difference, and the French have to be willing to ask...

And one is still talking about ships designed in 1910 or thereabouts that have had a tough war and suffered the catastrophic loss of one sister in combat.

It's also a post-1900 question, of course.

Best,
 
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A possible option is to give HMS Malaya to the sultanate. We often forget that Malaya was not a true British colony outside of Singapore, and Malaya's muslim leaders, IIRC, paid for the battleship's construction. To get the deal done you'd need to do it before war's end or shortly thereafter.
 
talking about the DEI, what if they were sold to netherlands for use in the DEI

That could have rather interesting consequences for the second world war if it happened .Would the Dutch have been at all interested in these ships though ?And could they have afforded to buy the twins and the supporting ships they would definitely need for these ships .
 

Raunchel

Banned
That could have rather interesting consequences for the second world war if it happened .Would the Dutch have been at all interested in these ships though ?And could they have afforded to buy the twins and the supporting ships they would definitely need for these ships .

The money was there, it's just that the Dutch didn't like military spending, which was one of the things leading to the disaster in ww2, but if things were different, they could have bought them.
 
Even more practical, the Dutch considered purchasing the design for the Scharnhorst class, though heavily augmented to fit in their own demands, namely in terms of speed and range. Scharnhorst as constrcuted in Germany lacked both range and speed, compared to the Dutch requirements as well as having a split secondary battery in both a seperate LA and a heavy AA part. The Dutch considered that a waist of tonnage and from the start opted for a DP battery of some sort. (See Design 1047)
 
Okay so back to the RAN purchase of the Lions .Could these ships have been used in a similar fashion as the dutch planned to use their planned Battlecruisers ?
Could they during the second world war have been used as a fleet in being to force the IJN to deploy heavy units to challenge them and thus draw of some of the ships that could have been better used elsewhere such as Midway or the Coral sea ?
 
Okay so back to the RAN purchase of the Lions .Could these ships have been used in a similar fashion as the dutch planned to use their planned Battlecruisers ?
Could they during the second world war have been used as a fleet in being to force the IJN to deploy heavy units to challenge them and thus draw of some of the ships that could have been better used elsewhere such as Midway or the Coral sea ?

Unlikely, as they required a large crew and infrastructure to be maintained, both of which were not available in Autralia, which had too small a population and therefor too small a military personelreserve in peacetime at least. The ships were unable to dock as well, given the lack of yard and port facilites. Even more distrubing would be their technical condition, as the ships already had a history of hard service in the Great War, causing them to show their age rapidly and especially their technical and engineering condition was poor.

Australia had more to gain with newly build smaller ships, such as cruisers, which were ideal for the roles the long coastline possessing Australia had to protect, rather than a few old very large ships.
 
Even more practical, the Dutch considered purchasing the design for the Scharnhorst class, though heavily augmented to fit in their own demands, namely in terms of speed and range. Scharnhorst as constrcuted in Germany lacked both range and speed, compared to the Dutch requirements as well as having a split secondary battery in both a seperate LA and a heavy AA part. The Dutch considered that a waist of tonnage and from the start opted for a DP battery of some sort. (See Design 1047)

a link for the design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_1047_battlecruiser

i think the design was considered to be an improvement on the scharnhorst
 
Okay so back to the RAN purchase of the Lions .Could these ships have been used in a similar fashion as the dutch planned to use their planned Battlecruisers ?
Could they during the second world war have been used as a fleet in being to force the IJN to deploy heavy units to challenge them and thus draw of some of the ships that could have been better used elsewhere such as Midway or the Coral sea ?

If they were as significant as 4 carriers with accompanying BCs, they would have changed the whole war including if ever the Japanese would even attack at all.

But if you meant just the BCs, they would have been insufficient vs the Carrier air power the Japanese brought at DEI campaign and wouldnt have extended the DEI campaign into May for Coral Sea or Midway.
 

Redbeard

Banned
In OTL the RN had resources to reconstruct four battleships/battlecruisers: Warspite, Queen Elisabeth, Valiant and Renown. At least three more ships had substantial refits in the mid-late 30s: Malaya, Royal Oak and Repulse.

IMHO no resources should be wasted on any of the Rs and I would even give up some or all of the resources spent on the QEs to get some really fast and modernised ships in service by WWII - i.e. Tiger, Lion and Princess Royal. Something on the line of the IJN Kongo class.

So three R class are scrapped or put into demilitarised status (like Iron Duke and one of the IJN Kongo class) and Renown, Tiger, Lion and Princess Royal are given total reconstrucutions + lets say Warspite - just for the sake of old friendship. Repulse keep her OTL refits and Hood as the newest ship keep up appreanaces while the others are in dock, but is up NeXT - when war breaks out - as OTL.

The remaining QEs and Rs (six ships) are the Rs of this TL - i.e. Escort convoys, bombard coasts and be a liability in any serious battle.

By 1939 and until the KGV enter service this however leaves the RN with six fast capital ships capable of handling anything the deleted ships were in (i.e. nothing serious) and lot much better.

The Panzerschiffe will be much less of a threat as will the twins. In the Med the VV will be big mouthful to crack when she enters service in spring 1940 but the four modernised BB lights will loose their speed advantage and Thus their ability to disengage if meeting serious opposition.

Anywhere the six battlecruisers will be excellent for escorting fast carriers.

I guess the bad reputation of BCs after Jutland was main reason for this not happening in OTL, but if we could manage to put a butterfly onboard Queen Mary so she like Lion avoids detonation (but sink after say torpedo/mine damage) perhaps it would be enough? That two Is detonated after going up against the enemy battleline hardly was a surprise.
 
the problem was tho that the RN BC's had been thrashed all during the war

(afterall why mope around at 15 knots when you can zip everywhere at 25 knots)

and remember the surviving Splendid Cats had taken quite a mauling in the battles they had been involved in

after all is said and done tho - i'd have much rather seen either Lion or Tiger kept around instead of Iron Duke for all the reasons stated upthread - you modernise one of these instead of an R and the butterflies could flap

off the top of my head:

stick her with Glorious
munch a pocket battleship
have her with Hood & POW
carrier escort
 
So the Aussie ships have been discussed at length and I like the last several suggestions .But what about Canada and their ships ?

Chile was hit hard by the Great Depression and for much of the 1930s Almirante Latorre was kept in a care taker status. After PH, the US even approached the Chilean government about buying her.

Just a little twist where as the storm clouds in Europe darken, have Canada re-purchase Almirante Latorre from Chile and re-name her HMCS Canada. She could even get modernized in the US before the RCN takes delivery.
 
Chile was hit hard by the Great Depression and for much of the 1930s Almirante Latorre was kept in a care taker status. After PH, the US even approached the Chilean government about buying her.

Just a little twist where as the storm clouds in Europe darken, have Canada re-purchase Almirante Latorre from Chile and re-name her HMCS Canada. She could even get modernized in the US before the RCN takes delivery.

So assuming this or something similar happens and the ship is bought and/or retained by Canada and underwent modernization's when she needed what would her war service have likely been like and could the ship have possibly been made into a floating museum after the war ?
 
So assuming this or something similar happens and the ship is bought and/or retained by Canada and underwent modernization's when she needed what would her war service have likely been like and could the ship have possibly been made into a floating museum after the war ?

All things being equal she probably has a pretty boring war spending most of it on the North Atlantic convoy run and any convoy she is escorting is avoided by the German raiders. Maybe she gets to participate in the hunt for Bismarck, and she probably shows up off Normandy as a bombardment ship.

On the other hand, maybe she does get into it with a German raider and she probably wins that or maybe she runs afoul of some hotshot German sub skipper.

Museum - depends on the money. Those can be expensive. I'm still flummoxed that USS Enterprise did not become a museum but crap happens.
 
Museum - depends on the money. Those can be expensive. I'm still flummoxed that USS Enterprise did not become a museum but crap happens.

I am with you of all the warships of the second world war Enterprise and Warspite deserved a far better fate than they got .I mean the US saved USS Texas ???A ship who did nothing but shore bombardment and convoy escort and not the big E !
 
I am with you of all the warships of the second world war Enterprise and Warspite deserved a far better fate than they got .I mean the US saved USS Texas ???A ship who did nothing but shore bombardment and convoy escort and not the big E !

Whatever about Enterprise, Warspite was in horrible material condition by the end of the war, would she have been able to be used as a museum? Though the UK should have saved one of their BB's given their history.
 
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