Atomic War in the 80s

Thank you, Snake Featherston, that was educational, enlightening and entertaining to read. I learned a lot from it. :)

It is this reason that any scenario on WWIII from a US POV will tend to these timeframes: the balance of power favors the USA so it has brief satisfaction for a while before the effects of a thermonuclear exchange kicks in. The prospect of what a prolonged war at the periods of Soviet strength before mass quantities of nukes on both sides and after Soviet superiority in means to wage nuclear war kicked in, by contrast, suits only those that take a delight in well-written dystopias. What almost everybody misses is that only in the first case is there likely to be a winner short of a mass ecological catastrophe, as once the H-bomb comes into play, there is bad, worse, and the apocalypse.
 
It is this reason that any scenario on WWIII from a US POV will tend to these timeframes: the balance of power favors the USA so it has brief satisfaction for a while before the effects of a thermonuclear exchange kicks in. The prospect of what a prolonged war at the periods of Soviet strength before mass quantities of nukes on both sides and after Soviet superiority in means to wage nuclear war kicked in, by contrast, suits only those that take a delight in well-written dystopias. What almost everybody misses is that only in the first case is there likely to be a winner short of a mass ecological catastrophe, as once the H-bomb comes into play, there is bad, worse, and the apocalypse.

Yeah, that's why in general I really do NOT care for such scenarios.

My Farorite two WWIII books were Red Storm Rising and Team Yankee.
 
Well I didn't post up affects of radiation, only what radiation and fallout is. It is somewhat naive to assume that all nuclear weapons produce large amounts of fallout. They don't. Plus people, the media, activists over exagerate the threat from atomic devices. It's because they hear the word 'atomic' or 'radioactive' and associate with the bomb, not what it actually is.

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If you want to look at radiation dose maps* such as this one;

radmap_usa.jpg


From the 1950s 1960s US nuclear tests, the darkest red is 16Rads, 1 Rad is 0.01Gy, therefore the maximum fallout dosage from fallout here is 0.16Gy. Now if you take the time to look up what a dose of 0.16Gy is;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome

It's about 1/6th of the lowest rating there...and I think (using a general quality factor) that works out to a dose equvilent of 0.032 Sv, or ~64% the maximum yearly dose allowed for US radiation workers, or living in a concrete/brick how for 457 years, take your pick...


Then consider how rapidly the radioactivity of your 'dose' falls away;

fallout3.jpg


Quoting a nice little snippet of some book, off wikipedia cos I say it;
"Quickly putting or dumping wastes outside is not hazardous once fallout is no longer being deposited. For example, assume the shelter is in an area of heavy fallout and the dose rate outside is 400 R/hr enough to give a potentially fatal dose in about an hour to a person exposed in the open. If a person needs to be exposed for only 10 seconds to dump a bucket, in this 1/360th of an hour he will receive a dose of only about 1 R. Under war conditions, an additional 1-R dose is of little concern."
When you look at the information like this in its raw terms, you kinda realise; "Oh it's not that bad is it?".

I think, apart from realising that unless an enemy nation was being sadistic, many people would survive a nuclear war, the fact that fallout isn't as dangerous as the media/popular culture makes it out to be, is the best contributions I can make to the concepts of nuclear war.

Still, thank God nobody ever did press the button!


*Note: This map appears to be the extrapolated dose in regions by studying increases in Tyroid cancer, and so is the exponential decay graph intergrated up over many years, rather than a single one time dose. Given that there were many nuclear tests in the US this might give a good indercation of long term exposure to multiple nuclear detonations.
 
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Well I didn't post up affects of radiation, only what radiation and fallout is. It is somewhat naive to assume that all nuclear weapons produce large amounts of fallout. They don't. Plus people, the media, activists over exagerate the threat from atomic devices. It's because they hear the word 'atomic' or 'radioactive' and associate with the bomb, not what it actually is.

------------------------------------------------

If you want to look at radiation dose maps* such as this one;

radmap_usa.jpg


From the 1950s 1960s US nuclear tests, the darkest red is 16Rads, 1 Rad is 0.01Gy, therefore the maximum fallout dosage from fallout here is 0.16Gy. Now if you take the time to look up what a dose of 0.16Gy is;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome

It's about 1/6th of the lowest rating there...and I think (using a general quality factor) that works out to a dose equvilent of 0.032 Sv, or ~64% the maximum yearly dose allowed for US radiation workers, or living in a concrete/brick how for 457 years, take your pick...


Then consider how rapidly the radioactivity of your 'dose' falls away;

fallout3.jpg


Quoting a nice little snippet of some book, off wikipedia cos I say it;
When you look at the information like this in its raw terms, you kinda realise; "Oh it's not that bad is it?".

I think, apart from realising that unless an enemy nation was being sadistic, many people would survive a nuclear war, the fact that fallout isn't as dangerous as the media/popular culture makes it out to be, is the best contributions I can make to the concepts of nuclear war.

Still, thank God nobody ever did press the button!


*Note: This map appears to be the extrapolated dose in regions by studying increases in Tyroid cancer, and so is the exponential decay graph intergrated up over many years, rather than a single one time dose. Given that there were many nuclear tests in the US this might give a good indercation of long term exposure to multiple nuclear detonations.

Once again, Genmotty, I am grateful to you for that informative and reasoned summation.
 
This is fallout, and while some fallout will be creating with an airburst it is a fraction of that of a ground burst. Since ground burst targets will be of a hardened millitary nature and not cities, there would be far less radioactive fallout than is portrayed in popular culture...if you live near a missile base though...sorry hard luck!

Our missile fields are located in the dead middle of our agricultural heartland. Do the math.

Also, cities do contain targets that would get groundbursts. Airports, for instance. Any major city is going to get a mix of ground and air-bursts in an overlapping pattern.

Unfortunatly the people of Hiroshima and Nagisaki never knew any of this, and it might be estimated that a 3rd of all deaths were a result of exposure to the 'black rain' that fell after the detonations. While these early bombs weren't ground bursts, they would be nothing like the carefully calculated airbursts that might be seen in a 'cold war gone hot' in the 1980s.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki each recieved one bomb (a poorly delivered one in Nagasaki's case) bomb at <25 kilotons, while any cold war strategic target will recieve at least two warheads of 100 kilotons or more. The situations are not entirely comparable.

Also, education on radiation in the post-war world, while better, is no where near so comprehensive that everyone knows what you have outlined.

Britian in many respects could expect a fairly rapid return to 'normality' since its island nature will allow for boats to take the place of wrecked infrastructure. Refugees won't be able to flood in from other parts of europe, and the lack of police and civilian firearms place a much greater proportion of people as equals.

Boats need fuel, fuel in post-nuclear Britain is going to be extremely scarce.

If the people of the cities can be kept from flooding into the countryside regions and 'pillageing' then 'authority' can insure that agricultural industry can be maintained since it will not have been the targets of the nuclear stikes (unless a sadistic nation was trying to commit genocide). If the agricultural industry can be maintained, food sources can be maintained, therefore within a fairly short amount of time rations will be able to be set up and redistributed to the city regions.

To quote an aide to General Leslie Groves after he demanded the first atomic test to be covered-up: "General, can't you give us an easier task? Like making the Mississippi disappear?"

The loss of public order over the vast majority of the country is garunteed. Food distribution will break down because any food that isn't destroyed or contaminated is likely to be stolen or (more likely) rot in the storehouse since the vehicles and fuel needed to transport it is unavailable.

As can be seen with recent tsunami in Japan, with relative order maintained even widespread destruction across the country can be repaired within a matter of months.

Of course, not all of Japan was affected, as would be the case in a nuclear war, but it shows how maintained order aids the recovery process.

Order was able to be maintained precisely because not all of Japan was affected. Communications with the affected areas were either re-established within minutes/hours or was never broken in the first place. That is not the case

If we contrast the Japanese tsunami with the Boxing day quake in 2004, vast communities all along Indonesia, Bangladesh and India have still not recovered. This is down to essentially a lack of general reconstruction planning and inaccess to modern equipment for reconstruction. However even here if we compare relative recovery, people were able to pick themselves up and deal with their losses and economic output today is about the same as it would have been without the quake and tsunami here. This shows that even if hundreds of thousands of people die, there are still those left with the knowledge to rebuild.

In all cases outlined, communication was maintained and copious amounts of outside assistance to the affected areas, both natoinal and international, came about in a matter of days. Triage was never implemented on a national scale because resources and comms never became that scarce.

In a post-global nuclear war scenario, resources are that scarce, international assistance is a pipedream, and the Government will need months, minimum, to re-establish contact with areas of the country it has lost control.

In fact if we think about percentages, using the data from the atomic bombings during WWII,

Which is inapplicable to a all-out nuclear exchange. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were struck by only one very low-yield warheads and were still able to recieve outside assistance from the rest of the nation within a few-days and assistance from the rest of the world pretty much the first few hours after Japan surrendered.

A post-global nuclear war city will not have that.

only about 20-25% of the cities populations were killed by the bombs themselves. Which is a far cry from 90% of the population

Nobody said 90% of the entire population would die. Merely specific parts of it, most of whom are people who tend live near high-priority countervalue targets. These are people who are generally the best informed on the minute quirks of radioactive fallout and serious medical emergencies, like doctors and phycisists.

In terms of the first few months, the death toll in the United States will be roughly one hundred million (give or take ten million), out of a total population (in 1985) of 240 million (rounded up), that is ~40% of the population. For comparison Europe lost an estimated 45-50% of its population to the black death. Of course, European society at the time was massively agrarian and decentralized already, European peasantry was used to hardship, and the death toll was spread out over a four year period so there was only a partial collapse of social order.

Compare that to todays (or the 80's) heavily industrialized, centralized, and comfort-inclined American population and then add in we are talking a devestation that occurs in a matter of months.

At least some period of anarchy is garunteed and there will be plenty of social and (to a much lesser extent) technological regression*.


*When I say technological regression, I'm not saying 'back to the medieval ages!' stuff, although its going to seem like it for the average American. What I'm talking about is a kind of cannabilization and jury-rigging of current technology to fit new needs using scarcer resources. Like putting a steam engine in a car because gasoline is too scarce.
 
An interesting map showing possible Soviet targeting can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_nuclear_strike_map.svg

From that map it appears that the eastern seaboard would escape relatively untouched. The reason for this is that the map shows a targeting variant where US nuclear forces are targeted rather than population centers.

But if you note the dark brown splotches, you can imagine what would happen had the Soviets targeted pop centers: most cities would be covered in leathal fallout and so there would be no survivors.
I can't imagine that industrial centers like Detroit and Pittsburgh wouldn't have been hit.

Also, I would tend to think major ports like Savannah and Houston would get hit (they do have Charleston getting hit, at least).

And, as someone stated before, why not San Diego?

Also, not "everyone" would die. Not even close.
 
Can I just once again say that this is a REALLY creepy and disturbing thread and it is REALLY frikken morbid that it has gone on for this long.
 
Can I just once again say that this is a REALLY creepy and disturbing thread and it is REALLY frikken morbid that it has gone on for this long.

History (and by extension, alternate history) is filled with disturbing and horrific events. Potential nuclear war is no different in that regard.
 
You will note ObssesedNuker that I did fully admit in that post that the Bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima would be "nothing like the carefully calculated airbursts that might be seen in a 'cold war gone hot' in the 1980s." and that I was using WWII information to describe various situations, as well as describing the shortcomings of events like the tsunamis since they don't represent total national destruction (but then that wasn't the point, the point was looking at how maintained order changes the speed/nature of the recovery process).

So if that was meant to be a rebuttal* from you, you only stated the same shortcomings that I myself did...the purpose was to which?


My overall point in making the post was to rather than 'talk out my ass' about what the destruction might be without any reasoning, I wanted to impress that look we have real life situations for fairly similar events; in part. That means we can use them to garner some information about what a total nuclear exchange might be like.

It certainly gives us a much greater insight than say; "240 Million dead" and then trying to go from half the population killed to what the US might be like 6 months down the road.

It doesn't give us any information about fallout, it's effect on the US agricultural states, the loss of law and order, who has been killed? etc. etc.

That last one, I mean that's a big one isn't it? You bomb the cities and you leave the very farm folk who can cope with growing their own food and the 'harsh life', and not the "heavily industrialized, centralized, and comfort-inclined American population".

Specialists as well tend to live away from city centres in suburban areas, not within cities. So if the strike happens at local day or local night is going to affect strongly the total amount of deaths and if they include the majority of the highly skilled populace or not.

Then you have to consider that even if a large proportion of an industrialised nations specialists are killed of...so too has a large proportion of all the dumb wits of our nations.

Overall we might expect near equal parity in ratios of skilled to non-skilled workers, and although we may have lost the real specialists in various fields, there will still be enough people with University or Graduate level education (even in the '80s) to provide knowledge such I have provided here with said graphs and what fallout is.

If we take this as a form of case study, how long must it take before somebody with 'knowledge' turns up at your little commune?


I don't intend this as a rebuttal or saying I disagree with you on widespread destruction, but what I did want to impress was information surrounding the concepts and how that will strongly influence the result of a total nuclear exchange. It's not a foregone conclusion; everybody dies.

Here are the points that will cause deaths, here are the ones that will speed recovery etc.

Then you have ingenuity;
I mean so what if you don't have fuel for a boat, use a sail. There be enough pleasure and sail boats around all of Europe for those to dominate for years afterwards before railways get repaired for moving of mass goods. We can tell that even if some terrorist just blew up all of Europe’s infrastructure tomorrow.

Sod steam engines for regression, they be fiddly things people that only a few 'steampunks' know how to really build. You'll see diesel engines being converted to run off various greases/fats since there will be far more mechanics knowing how to pull that conversion off then building a steam engine from scratch.

Then why use a car? Get yourself a push bike, guaranteed personal transport over destroyed infrastructure etc. etc.

Ok the US has got a problem with that for how spread out there cities are since they were built in the time of the motor car. That is a problem for the US, a unique one, a bit like siting nuclear silos in the midwest or the prevalence of guns.

Still some places have these issues, but they all affect the post exchange world, and that's why its relevant.

Again I ramble on, so I'll cut it here...
 
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