Atomic War in the 80s

Not particularly, like I said I'm just very interested in the subject.
Well the thing is that with 20 years to prepare recovery is iffy at best, with forty years or mor toprapre the picture chages considerably.

That's important to bear in mind.

Also iimportant to bear in mind is that as the war goes on not all of the nukes will get used. In fact it's pretty likely that the temporary EMP will prevent the lion's share of the arsenals getting used. The effects o nthat will be worse for the Soviets than for us.

Make No mistake, the U.S> is going to get pasted.

We'll get it pretty rough, losing the east coast a good chunk of the midland states and maybe the pacific coast will get it as well.

But the idea of total devastation and a recovery that results in a scenario like ACFL?

Bear in mind that the Author was just using Nuclear war as his Deus Ex Machina to reimagine the middle ages.
 
I don't know where Sgt Heretic is getting his numbers. In the 80's the Soviet missile forces were almost as reliable as our own, with only a 20-30% failure (roughly the same as our own). In terms of both land-based ICBMs and SLBMs with the range needed to hit the CONUS, the Soviets have 9,000 ready-to-go warheads. While only a part of this force was normally at full readiness, you can bet that in a crisis situation the Soviets would bring as many of these systems to an at-ready-state as they could. The rest of their 26,000 warheads are either theater/tactical weapons slated for European and Asian targets, on-board navy vessels*, or in storage.

Long story short: a fracturing of the United States is possible, even likely, but not garunteed. Despite provisions for continuity of government, such provisions are not garunteed. These kinds of bunkers are priority targets and the post-war communication difficulties will mean the government will be unable to establish control over large swathes of the country for quite some time...

The same honestly goes for the Soviets, who were actually more thorough and consistent in their CoG preperations, extending it somewhat outside the government to industry and the civilian populace, but have the issue of dealing with a much more... divisive populace.

As for EMP: its an unreliable weapon at best. We can garuntee that military electronics, especially ones related to the nations strategic nuclear weapon systems, in both East and West will remain completely unaffected... such systems are designed as more hardened. For civilian electronics the effects will be much more random: many won't be affected at all, some will only temporarily cease to work, and only a very few will actually get fried. In any case, its redundant as the physical destruction wreaked by nuclear warfare would cause far more damage to the civilian electronic infrastructure then any EMP.

Europe is unlikely to see any surviving nations. Germany is going to be one huge chemical-nuclear deadzone. Soviet bio-weapons may or may not also get unleashed, but more on those when I get a chance at a later post.
 
I don't know where Sgt Heretic is getting his numbers. In the 80's the Soviet missile forces were almost as reliable as our own, with only a 20-30% failure (roughly the same as our own). In terms of both land-based ICBMs and SLBMs with the range needed to hit the CONUS, the Soviets have 9,000 ready-to-go warheads. While only a part of this force was normally at full readiness, you can bet that in a crisis situation the Soviets would bring as many of these systems to an at-ready-state as they could. The rest of their 26,000 warheads are either theater/tactical weapons slated for European and Asian targets, on-board navy vessels*, or in storage.

Long story short: a fracturing of the United States is possible, even likely, but not garunteed. Despite provisions for continuity of government, such provisions are not garunteed. These kinds of bunkers are priority targets and the post-war communication difficulties will mean the government will be unable to establish control over large swathes of the country for quite some time...

The same honestly goes for the Soviets, who were actually more thorough and consistent in their CoG preperations, extending it somewhat outside the government to industry and the civilian populace, but have the issue of dealing with a much more... divisive populace.

As for EMP: its an unreliable weapon at best. We can garuntee that military electronics, especially ones related to the nations strategic nuclear weapon systems, in both East and West will remain completely unaffected... such systems are designed as more hardened. For civilian electronics the effects will be much more random: many won't be affected at all, some will only temporarily cease to work, and only a very few will actually get fried. In any case, its redundant as the physical destruction wreaked by nuclear warfare would cause far more damage to the civilian electronic infrastructure then any EMP.

Europe is unlikely to see any surviving nations. Germany is going to be one huge chemical-nuclear deadzone. Soviet bio-weapons may or may not also get unleashed, but more on those when I get a chance at a later post.

I am a woman sir, I have not the anatomy to be a "Sir".
 
I am a woman sir, I have not the anatomy to be a "Sir".

Ah, sorry then. Given that its the internet and I don't really have any way of knowing, I tend to automatically assume that I am talking to men. As a heads-up, I may wind-up forgetting that you're a chick in the future, so apologies for any of those future incidents too.
 
Ah, sorry then. Given that its the internet and I don't really have any way of knowing, I tend to automatically assume that I am talking to men. As a heads-up, I may wind-up forgetting that you're a chick in the future, so apologies for any of those future incidents too.
Maybe I should post a picture of myself.
 
Soviet knowledge of Continuity of government (COG)

Continuity of government (COG)

I have great faith in COG vs non-Soviet threats [ 9/11 clones targeting POTUS even during State of Union, etc...]

And great praise to our current POTUS for selecting the only Cabinet member with Continuity on Jan 20, 2008. Sec of Defense Gates was the logical Designated Survivor for Inauguration Day.

Far too often POTUS picks a junior Cabinet member with no defense / crisis experience to suddenly become POTUS in a tragedy.
Designated Survivor for Inauguration Days and State of Unions should be more thoughtful than..."Oh hey the Sec. of Education did great in Battlestar Galactica so ...."

On the nuke war topic of COG
Given Soviet spy penetrations, I never had great faith in COG after massive nuke exchange.

I also think many commentators fail to realize the widespread extent of nuke war. "...Rural areas will be safer..." or "...Areas south of KY/ mason Dixon less targeted..." or "...Mount Vernon IL as some kind of rally center unless too much fallout..."

My old home state of Missouri is an example of a state blown away by nuke war in 80s. KC nuked; St Louis nuked; Fort Leonard Wood nuked [meanwhile 20mins away in my hometown Rolla I am ashes if we went to the PX and Commissary that day, glowing and dying if we stayed home] Radiation's a BLEEP!

No everyone in Missouri does not die, but so much infrastructure is gone... fields covered in rad active ash and rivers / water table poisoned that glowing survivors strave / freeze/ die of rampant waterborne disease / etc.
 
Continuity of government (COG)

I have great faith in COG vs non-Soviet threats [ 9/11 clones targeting POTUS even during State of Union, etc...]

And great praise to our current POTUS for selecting the only Cabinet member with Continuity on Jan 20, 2008. Sec of Defense Gates was the logical Designated Survivor for Inauguration Day.

Far too often POTUS picks a junior Cabinet member with no defense / crisis experience to suddenly become POTUS in a tragedy.
Designated Survivor for Inauguration Days and State of Unions should be more thoughtful than..."Oh hey the Sec. of Education did great in Battlestar Galactica so ...."

On the nuke war topic of COG
Given Soviet spy penetrations, I never had great faith in COG after massive nuke exchange.

I also think many commentators fail to realize the widespread extent of nuke war. "...Rural areas will be safer..." or "...Areas south of KY/ mason Dixon less targeted..." or "...Mount Vernon IL as some kind of rally center unless too much fallout..."

My old home state of Missouri is an example of a state blown away by nuke war in 80s. KC nuked; St Louis nuked; Fort Leonard Wood nuked [meanwhile 20mins away in my hometown Rolla I am ashes if we went to the PX and Commissary that day, glowing and dying if we stayed home] Radiation's a BLEEP!

No everyone in Missouri does not die, but so much infrastructure is gone... fields covered in rad active ash and rivers / water table poisoned that glowing survivors strave / freeze/ die of rampant waterborne disease / etc.

I did BASIC at Fort "Lost-in-the-wood in 1988, it would suck in was turned to ask whiles training.
 
I notice that most nuclear war stories take place either in the 80's or until the early 60's.There are not that many which take place between the Cuban missile crisis and 1980.Weird considering the fact that a good enough author could come up with some timeline where the 6 day war goes nuclear for everyone or Yom Kippur war the last time the US was at Defcon 3 until 9/11 AFAIK.In fact the single greatest number of alternate histories are either Cuba goes nuclear or sometime around 1982-83 basically until Gorbachev comes to power.Its a bit interesting since the global nuclear stockpile at least based on existing data peaked in 1986 not in 1983 and the highest number of nukes available to hit the US was around 1988-89 when the soviet capabilities peaked at least according to what data is available.Not that many stories take place in this period.
 
I notice that most nuclear war stories take place either in the 80's or until the early 60's.There are not that many which take place between the Cuban missile crisis and 1980.Weird considering the fact that a good enough author could come up with some timeline where the 6 day war goes nuclear for everyone or Yom Kippur war the last time the US was at Defcon 3 until 9/11 AFAIK.In fact the single greatest number of alternate histories are either Cuba goes nuclear or sometime around 1982-83 basically until Gorbachev comes to power.Its a bit interesting since the global nuclear stockpile at least based on existing data peaked in 1986 not in 1983 and the highest number of nukes available to hit the US was around 1988-89 when the soviet capabilities peaked at least according to what data is available.Not that many stories take place in this period.
That is because the Cuban Missile crisis, and Able Archer and the late 80's are the "Populat girls" of the AH nuke war set.
 
^Somewhat of an exaggeration. You wouldn't lose all of those personnel, but you would lose something like 90+% of them which is more then enough when compounded with the loss of infrastructure.

It certainly doesn't help that those kinds of people all live and work in proximity to rather high-value targets (both counter-value and counter-force).
 
My old home state of Missouri is an example of a state blown away by nuke war in 80s. KC nuked; St Louis nuked; Fort Leonard Wood nuked [meanwhile 20mins away in my hometown Rolla I am ashes if we went to the PX and Commissary that day, glowing and dying if we stayed home] Radiation's a BLEEP!

No everyone in Missouri does not die, but so much infrastructure is gone... fields covered in rad active ash and rivers / water table poisoned that glowing survivors strave / freeze/ die of rampant waterborne disease / etc.

You forgot about Whiteman AFB. A target now, but then...jeebus. The base itself, plus 150 Minuteman II silos scattered between KC and Jefferson City. Bend over, put yer head between yer legs, and...


Mo.jpg
 
The living envy the dead. The USA dramatically underestimated the sheer size of the Soviet arsenal, and for all Reagan's bluster, he never understood just how frightened the Gerontocracy-era USSR leadership actually was by his brinksmanship. Deaths from the nuclear exchange will be compounded by the results of mass gas saturation, but most especially given the OP by the unrestrained use of the plagues. The society that comes out of contact with the super-smallpox virus, for instance, will be immensely more impoverished than our own and never have a means to recover the technological advances of our own time.

By any 80s scenario the USSR's arsenal is better suited to a nuclear *war* than the US Arsenal, but a victory in a nuclear war is just a euphemism for a defeat.
 
I notice that most nuclear war stories take place either in the 80's or until the early 60's.There are not that many which take place between the Cuban missile crisis and 1980.Weird considering the fact that a good enough author could come up with some timeline where the 6 day war goes nuclear for everyone or Yom Kippur war the last time the US was at Defcon 3 until 9/11 AFAIK.In fact the single greatest number of alternate histories are either Cuba goes nuclear or sometime around 1982-83 basically until Gorbachev comes to power.Its a bit interesting since the global nuclear stockpile at least based on existing data peaked in 1986 not in 1983 and the highest number of nukes available to hit the US was around 1988-89 when the soviet capabilities peaked at least according to what data is available.Not that many stories take place in this period.

This is because in the early 1960s and later 1980s US military strength relative to the USSR was vastly superior. In the 1950s and 1970s-early 1980s, by contrast, US military strength at a conventional level was vastly *inferior* and there was a good part of the early Cold War where the USA had no nuclear arsenal whatsoever. Of course the USSR didn't have a big one either, but given its emphasis was *always* structured to warfighting, this bothered it much less than the corresponding absence of strength did the USA.

From a Tom Clancy POV it would be too depressing to write a realistic account of WWIII, USA-USSR at a timeframe where it turns out that nuclear war is an impossibility from no bombs and no means to deliver them for both sides, with the corresponding USSR Deep Operations curbstomp leading to a protracted European war and a long-term nuclear saturation from sheer desperation, nor is it a marketable story to describe the Hollow Army being torn to shreds by the USSR, attempts by the USA to use its nuclear arsenal followed by the Soviet second strike gutting the USA, additionally amplified by the probable release of biological weapons in the wake of nuclear casualties.
 
Too often in discussions of a scenario of total war with the Soviet Union those speaking over estimate the Soviet strategic abilities and underestimate our own.

The Soviet Leaders and strategic planners KNEW what their true capabilities were versus our capabilities and it is one of the reasons why they were deathly afraid of an American FIrst strike and never seriously contemplated a first strike against the West.

They KNEW it would result in their total annihilation as a country, net gain 0

They were terrified of us.

They knew we had an overwhelming bomber fleet that we could afford to keep in the air at their fail safe points just minutes away from their probable targets i nthe soviet union and they knew we had a multi level fighter/interceptor curtain over the U.S. and our allies.

They also knew about Harpoon and TAC/A/MO.

our airborn auxiliary command aircraft and they had no idea WHERE Harpoon and TAC/A/MO were at any given time.

This is true only at various times in the Cold War. For much of the period up to the late 1950s/early 1960s, the USA had a relatively hollow total army and no large amount of either nuclear weapons or means to deliver them, while the USSR always had a much superior conventional force structure. For all the fear-mongering about the Bomber and Missile Gaps, the real danger zones of the USA were the first phase of the Cold War, where it did not have a real nuclear deterrent and the USSR actually knew this the whole time and the 1970s-early 1980s when a Hollow Army v. Red Army scenario sees the Red Army do really, really well until the nukes and gas and germs produce bombs fall, everyone dies.

IMHO the most dangerous time of them all in the Cold War was actually the immediate post-WWII phase when the USA had no nuclear deterrent and the global Soviet intelligence network, under ol' Uncle Joe actually knew more about that than Truman and Eisenhower did. Ike, however, wound up compensating for this by creating a US tendency to rely on atomic weaponry at the expense of a solid conventional structure, for admittedly very good reasons from a global political-strategic viewpoint, but not one from a military viewpoint.

The USA had two periods of military peaks over the USSR, the late Eisenhower-JFK-early LBJ era when its power over the USSR was graphically illustrated by flying U-2 flights the USSR kept trying and failing to down, while the USSR knew (again from superior intelligence of the USA relative to US on the USSR) that it was so vastly outgunned from a nuclear perspective that any nuclear war would see all the devastation affect the USSR, none affecting the USA is the first.

The second is the Reagan era where the reformed US military built the core of today's hyperpower army and the USSR's impending collapse caused its army, the core of its societal cohesion, to start rotting and degenerating into the core of the CIS armies.

There were likewise periods of USSR military peaks relative to the USA, the aforementioned late 1940s and 1970s-early 1980s timeframes. A crucial element that enabled the USA to end-run this was that the US economy could produce complicated electronics in bulk where the Soviet economy could not do anything of the sort.
 
For the record 'radioactive fallout' and 'EMP' affects are overrated and 'scares' about atomic devices mostly because we don't have everyday contact with atomic devices or their effects. Hence we 'exaggerate the threat' knowing that there is one...it's like how a legand is born from a true event.

The amount of fallout from an atomic varies greatly on if it is a fusion or fission primary detonation (fusion H-bombs use a small fission charge to ignite the fusion reaction, and so are still a bit 'dirty', even though the fusion reaction is for the most part clean), and if the bomb was an airburst or ground burst.

An air burst would be used against a large unsheiled target, like a city to create a shockwave through the atmosphere that compresses allong the ground front to deal preasure damage to structures.

Supprisingly the overrpressure is fairly low from this, and so long as your not stood out in the open within a couple of hundred metres of the epicentre you will come through the blast completly unscratched (apart from being very shocked). Unfortunatly 'not being out in the open', generally means being inside a building...the very object an airburst detonation is designed to destroy. Thus collasping rubble and flash fires started by flamable material caught in the heat radiation burst are your dangers.

Because the atomic reaction has very little contact with physical material fallout will be low.

Therefore damage to cities isn't 'total wipeout' to the population with a nuclear bomb, it's going to destroy free standing infrastructure but leave many people alive.

Ironically, the fact that in a nuclear war so many people would be left alive, but without the 'modern infrastructure' they are accustomed to, would be the major killer. Lack of fresh water, food, order and above all infomation would be the problems in the immidate aftermath. Not radiation or high technology not working...hell you've not got any power lines running into your city anymore (free standing structures your know)/the powerplant was within the shockwave radius.

Even more ironically, today even with the threat of full blown nuclear war on the wane, we are even more vunerable than we were 30 years ago. This is because our 'dynamic generation' 20-35 year olds, have grown up completly in a digital world in the west, and have very little concept of self survival or practical knowledge.


So when is fallout an issue? When you have a ground burst type weapon. In a ground burst the weapon is detonated close to, or on the ground, to create 'ground shock', essentially a mini earthquake designed to damage hardened structures. For instance an enemy missile silo.

Because the atomic reaction occurs close to the ground a greater amount of material comes within 'contact range', and so can be irradiated by gamma/x-rays produced in the photon burst.

Much of this material will be ground dust, and in the wake of the detonation the superheated air will rise in the atmosphere creating a rising cyclone, this breeze will draw dust kicked up in the intiall shockwave and drag it up into the lower-mid troposphere, where it may be carried by the prevailing winds and be dropped far from the initial source.

This is fallout, and while some fallout will be creating with an airburst it is a fraction of that of a ground burst. Since ground burst targets will be of a hardened millitary nature and not cities, there would be far less radioactive fallout than is portrayed in popular culture...if you live near a missile base though...sorry hard luck!


Even then radioactive fallout is not particularly dangerous if you recognise how to deal with it.

After many tests during the 50s of nuclear detonations dit was noted that the rapid movement of warm moist air from near the earth into the upper troposphere causes rainclouds to form, these rain clouds will create rain, and the rain dropplets would gather fallout from the air and concentrate it in the rainwater.

In the aftermath of a detonation services like mains water may be damaged, and that rain might appear as a god send to drink from or to collect to wash somebodies flash burns with.

However now that I've told you what that rain water contains you can see why this is particularly dangerous since you are taking a concentrated form of fallout an putting it either in contact with your skin (washing) or drinking it (ingesting radioactive material). For the record, radiation in this context is generally going to be charged ions (ionising radiation) when electrons were scattered out of the atomic shells of the atoms that make up the fallout matter. As such they will act a lot like alpha particles and so for the most part will be almost harmless unless ingested.

Most of these particles will disappate in the natural enviroment within a short time period (although the trace effects will exsit for decades).

Unfortunatly the people of Hiroshima and Nagisaki never knew any of this, and it might be estimated that a 3rd of all deaths were a result of exposure to the 'black rain' that fell after the detonations. While these early bombs weren't ground bursts, they would be nothing like the carefully calculated airbursts that might be seen in a 'cold war gone hot' in the 1980s.

Simply not drinking open water/eatting uncovered food and wearing body covering clothes in the hours and days just after a ground burst would save you from any radiation damage (within reason). If it was an airburst, you might not even need to take the procaution of body covering clothes. Although the point on food still stands since even a small amount of ingested radioactive matter is dangerous because it will at the bare minimum stay in your digestive tract for 8hrs or so, whereas material on your skin might get brushed off after only 10mins.



Because many people would be left alive within a couple of days law, order and civility might begin to crumble on the outskirts of crumbled cities, since the people who are left will not themselves have a clue about how to get food other than to raid it from supermarkets, or the 'authorities' who might be trying to deal with the situation.

People with weapons will be certain to use them. For the united state this is actually a major problem, since the avalibility of firearms in the state is much greater than Europe, Russia or Asia. Thus very quickly you'll resort to the law of the wild west, except with many more people fighting over much scarer resources.

For the united states the trouble in the weeks and months after a nuclear war might be simply not getting caught in the crossfire between armed gangs. 'Survivalists' in particular who have come up with 'bug-out plans', which is a big thing again in the US, will quickly take a dispropotionate share of undamaged supplies.

In the long run this means that these 'survivalists' are the most likely ones to pull through, and these will be precisely the anti-social, 'care only for me' types, which will make recovery and rebuilding more difficult. This would mean that for populaces with a high avalibility of weapons will more likely take longer to recover than nations which don't.

Britian in many respects could expect a fairly rapid return to 'normality' since its island nature will allow for boats to take the place of wrecked infrastructure. Refugees won't be able to flood in from other parts of europe, and the lack of police and civilian firearms place a much greater proportion of people as equals.

However a big part of 'picking up the pieces' would depend on the relative plans of nations. Some aspects of these are archived, but others are still classified.

Speaking from a general sense, the smart move for a government planning for widespread destruction of urban centres is not to focus on the urban centers, other than to halt the immidate damages caused by fires and loss of order.

If the people of the cities can be kept from flooding into the countryside regions and 'pillageing' then 'authority' can insure that agricultural industry can be maintained since it will not have been the targets of the nuclear stikes (unless a sadistic nation was trying to commit genocide). If the agricultural industry can be maintained, food sources can be maintained, therefore within a fairly short amount of time rations will be able to be set up and redistributed to the city regions.

With food, there will be hope. With hope people will trust their 'authority' and such will be able to not fall into a semi-anarchic state.

However the 'authority' that believes that it should suffer 'acceptable losses' and not care for the hit urban centres will find the city dwellers doing anything for food since they can't make it themselves.

Simmilarly a government that cannot organise in the aftermath to convice urban populaces to stay where they are will have issues with the local agriculture broken in the best intensions.

Having said this, attempting to save all areas won't work, particularly if the population itself is hostile. Triage will need to be conducted, in the manner that govenments choose will also dictate recovery. Harsher methods might instil order, but they also may weaken legitermacy of the 'authority'.

Of course the methods needed will be step-in-step with the level of force the civilian populations themselves can weid. Coming back to the notion of the avalibility of weapons, this is where armed schism can take place with official authority, and self-determined authority. In such cases all planning will go out the window for these areas.


Luckly most people of knowledge will survive, because many people will survive. So reorganising and dealing with these situations will just be another part of the recoverly process, slowing it down in some regions, while others not troubled by 'self-determined men' will get down to making the best of the situation and clear up.

As can be seen with recent tsunami in Japan, with relative order maintained even widespread destruction across the country can be repaired within a matter of months.

Of course, not all of Japan was affected, as would be the case in a nuclear war, but it shows how maintained order aids the recovery process.

If we contrast the Japanese tsunami with the Boxing day quake in 2004, vast communities all along Indonesia, Bangladesh and India have still not recovered. This is down to essentially a lack of general reconstruction planning and inaccess to modern equipment for reconstruction. However even here if we compare relative recovery, people were able to pick themselves up and deal with their losses and economic output today is about the same as it would have been without the quake and tsunami here. This shows that even if hundreds of thousands of people die, there are still those left with the knowledge to rebuild.

In fact if we think about percentages, using the data from the atomic bombings during WWII, only about 20-25% of the cities populations were killed by the bombs themselves. Which is a far cry from 90% of the population!

As we have seen above by considering the implications of the aftermath it makes more sense to kill as fewer a number of people, while causing the most damage to infrastructure, thus making the post war 'picking up the pieces' we a harder endeavour for your foe than yourself.

This means that you get back up on your feet first and take the upperhand.


Anyhow I ramble on,
If anybody would like to know more about blast effects and specific nations plans I can source some relevant information if you desire...
 
This is true only at various times in the Cold War. For much of the period up to the late 1950s/early 1960s, the USA had a relatively hollow total army and no large amount of either nuclear weapons or means to deliver them, while the USSR always had a much superior conventional force structure. For all the fear-mongering about the Bomber and Missile Gaps, the real danger zones of the USA were the first phase of the Cold War, where it did not have a real nuclear deterrent and the USSR actually knew this the whole time and the 1970s-early 1980s when a Hollow Army v. Red Army scenario sees the Red Army do really, really well until the nukes and gas and germs produce bombs fall, everyone dies.

IMHO the most dangerous time of them all in the Cold War was actually the immediate post-WWII phase when the USA had no nuclear deterrent and the global Soviet intelligence network, under ol' Uncle Joe actually knew more about that than Truman and Eisenhower did. Ike, however, wound up compensating for this by creating a US tendency to rely on atomic weaponry at the expense of a solid conventional structure, for admittedly very good reasons from a global political-strategic viewpoint, but not one from a military viewpoint.

The USA had two periods of military peaks over the USSR, the late Eisenhower-JFK-early LBJ era when its power over the USSR was graphically illustrated by flying U-2 flights the USSR kept trying and failing to down, while the USSR knew (again from superior intelligence of the USA relative to US on the USSR) that it was so vastly outgunned from a nuclear perspective that any nuclear war would see all the devastation affect the USSR, none affecting the USA is the first.

The second is the Reagan era where the reformed US military built the core of today's hyperpower army and the USSR's impending collapse caused its army, the core of its societal cohesion, to start rotting and degenerating into the core of the CIS armies.

There were likewise periods of USSR military peaks relative to the USA, the aforementioned late 1940s and 1970s-early 1980s timeframes. A crucial element that enabled the USA to end-run this was that the US economy could produce complicated electronics in bulk where the Soviet economy could not do anything of the sort.

Thank you, Snake Featherston, that was educational, enlightening and entertaining to read. I learned a lot from it. :)
 
For the record 'radioactive fallout' and 'EMP' affects are overrated and 'scares' about atomic devices mostly because we don't have everyday contact with atomic devices or their effects. Hence we 'exaggerate the threat' knowing that there is one...it's like how a legand is born from a true event.

The amount of fallout from an atomic varies greatly on if it is a fusion or fission primary detonation (fusion H-bombs use a small fission charge to ignite the fusion reaction, and so are still a bit 'dirty', even though the fusion reaction is for the most part clean), and if the bomb was an airburst or ground burst.

An air burst would be used against a large unsheiled target, like a city to create a shockwave through the atmosphere that compresses allong the ground front to deal preasure damage to structures.

Supprisingly the overrpressure is fairly low from this, and so long as your not stood out in the open within a couple of hundred metres of the epicentre you will come through the blast completly unscratched (apart from being very shocked). Unfortunatly 'not being out in the open', generally means being inside a building...the very object an airburst detonation is designed to destroy. Thus collasping rubble and flash fires started by flamable material caught in the heat radiation burst are your dangers.

Because the atomic reaction has very little contact with physical material fallout will be low.

Therefore damage to cities isn't 'total wipeout' to the population with a nuclear bomb, it's going to destroy free standing infrastructure but leave many people alive.

Ironically, the fact that in a nuclear war so many people would be left alive, but without the 'modern infrastructure' they are accustomed to, would be the major killer. Lack of fresh water, food, order and above all infomation would be the problems in the immidate aftermath. Not radiation or high technology not working...hell you've not got any power lines running into your city anymore (free standing structures your know)/the powerplant was within the shockwave radius.

Even more ironically, today even with the threat of full blown nuclear war on the wane, we are even more vunerable than we were 30 years ago. This is because our 'dynamic generation' 20-35 year olds, have grown up completly in a digital world in the west, and have very little concept of self survival or practical knowledge.


So when is fallout an issue? When you have a ground burst type weapon. In a ground burst the weapon is detonated close to, or on the ground, to create 'ground shock', essentially a mini earthquake designed to damage hardened structures. For instance an enemy missile silo.

Because the atomic reaction occurs close to the ground a greater amount of material comes within 'contact range', and so can be irradiated by gamma/x-rays produced in the photon burst.

Much of this material will be ground dust, and in the wake of the detonation the superheated air will rise in the atmosphere creating a rising cyclone, this breeze will draw dust kicked up in the intiall shockwave and drag it up into the lower-mid troposphere, where it may be carried by the prevailing winds and be dropped far from the initial source.

This is fallout, and while some fallout will be creating with an airburst it is a fraction of that of a ground burst. Since ground burst targets will be of a hardened millitary nature and not cities, there would be far less radioactive fallout than is portrayed in popular culture...if you live near a missile base though...sorry hard luck!


Even then radioactive fallout is not particularly dangerous if you recognise how to deal with it.

After many tests during the 50s of nuclear detonations dit was noted that the rapid movement of warm moist air from near the earth into the upper troposphere causes rainclouds to form, these rain clouds will create rain, and the rain dropplets would gather fallout from the air and concentrate it in the rainwater.

In the aftermath of a detonation services like mains water may be damaged, and that rain might appear as a god send to drink from or to collect to wash somebodies flash burns with.

However now that I've told you what that rain water contains you can see why this is particularly dangerous since you are taking a concentrated form of fallout an putting it either in contact with your skin (washing) or drinking it (ingesting radioactive material). For the record, radiation in this context is generally going to be charged ions (ionising radiation) when electrons were scattered out of the atomic shells of the atoms that make up the fallout matter. As such they will act a lot like alpha particles and so for the most part will be almost harmless unless ingested.

Most of these particles will disappate in the natural enviroment within a short time period (although the trace effects will exsit for decades).

Unfortunatly the people of Hiroshima and Nagisaki never knew any of this, and it might be estimated that a 3rd of all deaths were a result of exposure to the 'black rain' that fell after the detonations. While these early bombs weren't ground bursts, they would be nothing like the carefully calculated airbursts that might be seen in a 'cold war gone hot' in the 1980s.

Simply not drinking open water/eatting uncovered food and wearing body covering clothes in the hours and days just after a ground burst would save you from any radiation damage (within reason). If it was an airburst, you might not even need to take the procaution of body covering clothes. Although the point on food still stands since even a small amount of ingested radioactive matter is dangerous because it will at the bare minimum stay in your digestive tract for 8hrs or so, whereas material on your skin might get brushed off after only 10mins.



Because many people would be left alive within a couple of days law, order and civility might begin to crumble on the outskirts of crumbled cities, since the people who are left will not themselves have a clue about how to get food other than to raid it from supermarkets, or the 'authorities' who might be trying to deal with the situation.

People with weapons will be certain to use them. For the united state this is actually a major problem, since the avalibility of firearms in the state is much greater than Europe, Russia or Asia. Thus very quickly you'll resort to the law of the wild west, except with many more people fighting over much scarer resources.

For the united states the trouble in the weeks and months after a nuclear war might be simply not getting caught in the crossfire between armed gangs. 'Survivalists' in particular who have come up with 'bug-out plans', which is a big thing again in the US, will quickly take a dispropotionate share of undamaged supplies.

In the long run this means that these 'survivalists' are the most likely ones to pull through, and these will be precisely the anti-social, 'care only for me' types, which will make recovery and rebuilding more difficult. This would mean that for populaces with a high avalibility of weapons will more likely take longer to recover than nations which don't.

Britian in many respects could expect a fairly rapid return to 'normality' since its island nature will allow for boats to take the place of wrecked infrastructure. Refugees won't be able to flood in from other parts of europe, and the lack of police and civilian firearms place a much greater proportion of people as equals.

However a big part of 'picking up the pieces' would depend on the relative plans of nations. Some aspects of these are archived, but others are still classified.

Speaking from a general sense, the smart move for a government planning for widespread destruction of urban centres is not to focus on the urban centers, other than to halt the immidate damages caused by fires and loss of order.

If the people of the cities can be kept from flooding into the countryside regions and 'pillageing' then 'authority' can insure that agricultural industry can be maintained since it will not have been the targets of the nuclear stikes (unless a sadistic nation was trying to commit genocide). If the agricultural industry can be maintained, food sources can be maintained, therefore within a fairly short amount of time rations will be able to be set up and redistributed to the city regions.

With food, there will be hope. With hope people will trust their 'authority' and such will be able to not fall into a semi-anarchic state.

However the 'authority' that believes that it should suffer 'acceptable losses' and not care for the hit urban centres will find the city dwellers doing anything for food since they can't make it themselves.

Simmilarly a government that cannot organise in the aftermath to convice urban populaces to stay where they are will have issues with the local agriculture broken in the best intensions.

Having said this, attempting to save all areas won't work, particularly if the population itself is hostile. Triage will need to be conducted, in the manner that govenments choose will also dictate recovery. Harsher methods might instil order, but they also may weaken legitermacy of the 'authority'.

Of course the methods needed will be step-in-step with the level of force the civilian populations themselves can weid. Coming back to the notion of the avalibility of weapons, this is where armed schism can take place with official authority, and self-determined authority. In such cases all planning will go out the window for these areas.


Luckly most people of knowledge will survive, because many people will survive. So reorganising and dealing with these situations will just be another part of the recoverly process, slowing it down in some regions, while others not troubled by 'self-determined men' will get down to making the best of the situation and clear up.

As can be seen with recent tsunami in Japan, with relative order maintained even widespread destruction across the country can be repaired within a matter of months.

Of course, not all of Japan was affected, as would be the case in a nuclear war, but it shows how maintained order aids the recovery process.

If we contrast the Japanese tsunami with the Boxing day quake in 2004, vast communities all along Indonesia, Bangladesh and India have still not recovered. This is down to essentially a lack of general reconstruction planning and inaccess to modern equipment for reconstruction. However even here if we compare relative recovery, people were able to pick themselves up and deal with their losses and economic output today is about the same as it would have been without the quake and tsunami here. This shows that even if hundreds of thousands of people die, there are still those left with the knowledge to rebuild.

In fact if we think about percentages, using the data from the atomic bombings during WWII, only about 20-25% of the cities populations were killed by the bombs themselves. Which is a far cry from 90% of the population!

As we have seen above by considering the implications of the aftermath it makes more sense to kill as fewer a number of people, while causing the most damage to infrastructure, thus making the post war 'picking up the pieces' we a harder endeavour for your foe than yourself.

This means that you get back up on your feet first and take the upperhand.


Anyhow I ramble on,
If anybody would like to know more about blast effects and specific nations plans I can source some relevant information if you desire...

Genmotty, you may well have posted the most vital and neccesary post of information in this entire thread, great job. I did not eve know some of this stuff, thank you for educating me. :)
 
An interesting map showing possible Soviet targeting can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_nuclear_strike_map.svg

From that map it appears that the eastern seaboard would escape relatively untouched. The reason for this is that the map shows a targeting variant where US nuclear forces are targeted rather than population centers.

But if you note the dark brown splotches, you can imagine what would happen had the Soviets targeted pop centers: most cities would be covered in leathal fallout and so there would be no survivors.

There would be very few survivors.

Read Genmotty's post about the actual effects of Nuclear radiation.
 
The map does seem to be missing a few targets like if you look closely at California there don't seem to be major strikes around San Diego which then as now is a major naval base and a top target in any war.Also the map possibly includes only major strikes with the larger yield nukes.Targets in cities themselves assuming no military bases close by would be airports,harbour facilities any main industries especially defence contractors like Boeing,to this we add cities that happen to be state capitals.Lastly looking at assumed fallout levels the Midwest is pretty much gone.
 
The map does seem to be missing a few targets like if you look closely at California there don't seem to be major strikes around San Diego which then as now is a major naval base and a top target in any war.Also the map possibly includes only major strikes with the larger yield nukes.Targets in cities themselves assuming no military bases close by would be airports,harbour facilities any main industries especially defence contractors like Boeing,to this we add cities that happen to be state capitals.Lastly looking at assumed fallout levels the Midwest is pretty much gone.
I am guessing the map postulates only a limited nuclear exchange.
 
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