Atlantic/Pacific 46

Atlantic/Pacific 46

I always wonder how world War II would be like if it was still going on in 1946, if ships, planes or tanks that where under construction or planned sins 1939 where in service.

Would a H-class battleship (designated as Hindenburg-class) be able to survive a match with a Lion class battleship.

Would a Malta-class aircraft carrier be able to survive a kamikaze attack.

Would a Type XXI submarine be able to roam the seas without being detected.

Would a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star out dog fight a Messerschmitt Me 262.

Would a Tiger II win a dual with a M26 Pershing tank.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
... I assume you just ask for "technical" comparison, since the production policies and capacities of germany wouldn't have allowed a "proper fighting out on the battlefield" for almost every item you named (I don't know how far from completion the Malta-class carriers were at that time).
 
... I assume you just ask for "technical" comparison, since the production policies and capacities of germany wouldn't have allowed a "proper fighting out on the battlefield" for almost every item you named (I don't know how far from completion the Malta-class carriers were at that time).

That is right, no politics, no discussion about how it is posabile that the Germans and Japanese are still in the fight in 1946, just plain ans simple battles which would be fought with weapons that came to late or how battles might be fought but then a year later in OTL (like the battle of Okinawa fought in 1946 instead of 1945), or how the battle of the Bulge in 1945 would look like if Patton had M26 Pershing tanks.
 
Stuart Slade's The Big One TL covers some conflict between 1946 German and US equipment, mainly in the air. Even taking his economies with a pinch of salt you have to remember that the US economy on OTL could produce far greater volumes of equipment than the Third Reich. This means that the Germans are on shoestrings whilst the USA has moderate amounts of gear. Therefore no real one or one.

Also, no Malta carriers though and nothing Japanese at this point in the war because they are sitting it out and Britain quit in 1940.
 
Also, no Malta carriers though and nothing Japanese at this point in the war because they are sitting it out and Britain quit in 1940.

The United Kingdom and Japan are still in the game as this is about if ships, planes or tanks that where under construction or planned sins 1939 where in service and the battles that where fought with them.

Also i like the TBO verse as it is called but has nothing to do with this here.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Would a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star out dog fight a Messerschmitt Me 262.
Quoted from wiki :
After the war, the USAAF compared the P-80 and Me 262 concluding, "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (900 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter."[6]
So I would assume, that the Me 262 would have an advantage the higher the speed in combat, at lower speed maybe only slightly if any at all, depending on the pilots abilities.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Would a H-class battleship (designated as Hindenburg-class) be able to survive a match with a Lion class battleship.
According to http://www.navweaps.com/
I would assume yes, the 40.6 cm/L 52 guns had a bit better range and armor penetration on the side, traded off by a bit lower penetration of deck armor from about 18,000 m distance onwards.
The planned boring out to 42 cm calibre would have changed this IMO to a further advantage for the germans.

Its horizontal armor was - combined upper deck and armordeck - better than the Lion class, traded off by a lesser side armor.

In general I would say an H-class battleship would have had good chance to stand up against a Lion-class, a bit depending on the starting range of the battle : the closer the better for the H-class IMO (esp. if armed with 42 cm calibre).
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Atlantic/Pacific 46

I always wonder how world War II would be like if it was still going on in 1946, if ships, planes or tanks that where under construction or planned sins 1939 where in service.

Would a H-class battleship (designated as Hindenburg-class) be able to survive a match with a Lion class battleship.

Would a Malta-class aircraft carrier be able to survive a kamikaze attack.

Would a Type XXI submarine be able to roam the seas without being detected.

Would a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star out dog fight a Messerschmitt Me 262.

Would a Tiger II win a dual with a M26 Pershing tank.

Maybe

Depends on how many aircraft manage to get through

No, although it would be considerably more difficult than earlier models. This presumes that the build quality improves to the point that it won't simply sink before it reaches the Atlantic.

Depends on the version of F-80.

Sometimes.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Would a Tiger II win a dual with a M26 Pershing tank.
The had some good chance against the earlier Panthers and Tige Is, against the later Panther F ... possible but hard.

Against Tiger II : dead meat (better gun with higher range, better armor)
Against the planned E 75 and even more E 100 production of prototypes started in 1945: minced meat :D
 
According to http://www.navweaps.com/
I would assume yes, the 40.6 cm/L 52 guns had a bit better range and armor penetration on the side, traded off by a bit lower penetration of deck armor from about 18,000 m distance onwards.
The planned boring out to 42 cm calibre would have changed this IMO to a further advantage for the germans.

Its horizontal armor was - combined upper deck and armordeck - better than the Lion class, traded off by a lesser side armor.

In general I would say an H-class battleship would have had good chance to stand up against a Lion-class, a bit depending on the starting range of the battle : the closer the better for the H-class IMO (esp. if armed with 42 cm calibre).

Which is why the British will just send their carriers after it.:cool:
 
The had some good chance against the earlier Panthers and Tige Is, against the later Panther F ... possible but hard.

Against Tiger II : dead meat (better gun with higher range, better armor)
Against the planned E 75 and even more E 100 production of prototypes started in 1945: minced meat :D

If the war would go on in 1946 than there would be more than 2,000 T26E3 Pershing in service not including the Super Pershing, that is already more than the Tiger II production is even if the war goes on in 1946.

Okay lets have some more would a.
 
Which is why the British will just send their carriers after it.:cool:
Not really possible in the far north in winter, e.g. the defence of JW51B or North Cape. That's why the battleships hung around for so long postwar, it was only really with the advent of Buccaneer carrying Red Beard that the RN had something capable of replacing them under all circumstances - the gap in capability was simply because they couldn't afford to keep running the battleships any more.
 
My try,

- No its already been slowed and crippled by air dropped Torpedoes and dive bombs, then it gets tag teamed because there isn't a umpire looking.

- Yes Clydebank is too long a range for most kamikaze attacks.

- Yes but it probably cant find much and spends to long snorting in and out of the minefield and sitting in cratered Uboat pens waiting for spare parts and fuel.

- Yes but only due to it not dogfighting but simply diving on the ME262 as soon as it takes off due to having so many to stand combat patrols over every potential airbase all day long.

- No its been killed by the Centurion first.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
If the war would go on in 1946 than there would be more than 2,000 T26E3 Pershing in service not including the Super Pershing, that is already more than the Tiger II production is even if the war goes on in 1946.

Okay lets have some more would a.
Isn't that contrary to what you said in post #3 ?
(same goes to @jsb )
As I understand the OP it was asked for a one on one situation ...
 
Isn't that contrary to what you said in post #3 ?
(same goes to @jsb )
As I understand the OP it was asked for a one on one situation ...

Yes i did sorry i made a mistake.

Would a British Centurion Mark II win a battle with a Tiger II or a E-75 Standardpanzer.
 
Looking at things objectively not through the prism of napkinwaffe fantasy .

The RAF now has the following aircraft .

Vampire = to ME262
Sea Vampire = to ME262
Gloster Meteor mark 4 = to me 262
Hawker Sea Fury
De Havilland Hornet
Avro Lincoln higher altitude and speed =harder to intercept .
As another note the Canberra was flying in 1946 . faster then any piston fighter , higher flying then most fighters .

The Royal Navy now has the following fast ASW ships to combat the German fast subs

The Battle Class and it's Squid ASW mortar is more then capable of killing a fast sub .
A few Daring class Destroyers would be interesting as well .

In reality most ASW would be conducted through aircraft dropping torpedo's on Snorkelling subs .

As for the Tanks . well the German had a single incomplete prototype of an E100 , 2 prototypes of the Maus and no realistic plans for more then the F type Panther and the Panther 2 . Against this the Brits had the following .

The main tank is the Comet . (capable of killing panther frontally . Tiger 2 not so much . )

The Centurion is in full production as well in it's mark 2 version , possible with war continuing that the mark 3 may be brought forward .
17 ld APDS round can pen 233 mm at 1000 m this is sufficient to pen the front of a tiger 2 and the sides rear of any fantasy tank .

For the Infantry the main anti tank gun is now the 88 mm recoilless rifle and it will kill any tank in the world at 1000 yards .


In short the Germans had some interesting pieces of kit coming through the development programs and in some areas seem to be ahead of the allies , however in reality they had no hope due to simple production capacity . (I am not considering the loss of production capacity due to bombing , merely the raw capability )
 
The German Luftwaffe has also got in service in 1946:

Arado Ar 234 Reconnaissance jet bomber.

Horten Ho 229 Fighter/Bomber.

Heinkel He 162 jet Fighter.

Yes the Luftwaffe has only main jet fighter to the several British jet fighters which would be in use in 1946 but they also had other jet aircraft that where already flying or where being tested and could have flown if the war would still be going on in 1946.

I would think because the Panzer VIII Maus was one of Hitler pet projects several would be build, because the German Army did not saw use for them they would in this universe be given to the SS where they where grouped together in the SS Super Tank Battalion "Maus" (German: SS Super Panzer-Abteilung "Maus"), the tanks would because of their limit mobility be assigned to the defense of Berlin where they mange to destroy many soviet T-34 and even several IS tanks before finally being destroyed or abandoned by their crew.
 
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