ATL- Russian revolution to Democracy (1917)

History is a delicate thing, a complex interplay of action and reaction. There's more to alternate history than just deciding what you want to happen and ramrodding it without regard for the historical factors at play. What-ifs do not exercise themselves in a vacuum, but are subject to all the other factors that your point of divergence has no influence on. Your "what if" for this scenario was "what if Nicholas II is assassinated in February 1917". Wolfpaw has already correctly indicated what happens - Alexei ascends the throne with Grand Duke Michael and Empress Alexandra as regents.

This alone is a fascinating POD and could have sparked a nice multi-page discussion. In fact, I think that if you were to make a new thread with that as the opening post, you'd quickly get feedback that will help you begin to create a timeline. But there is no way at all that the Duma takes control of the situation that quickly, much less completely eliminates the monarchy's decision-making power.

What-Ifs are not license to decide what happens in an entire timeline. They modify the flow of history, and the joy and challenge of alternate history is figuring out how the flow will be altered. We know what would happen immediately after the death of Nicholas II, and the Duma calling democratic elections isn't it. Your timeline consists of you intervening to shape the flow of history the way you wish. You can't do that in alternate history, any more than you can alter the course of the Nile after throwing a rock in it.

Totally correct. Alternate history in the truest sense is not fiction. It's a intellectual discussion as to what would happen if an event or two were changed. When someone writes a timeline they are presenting they're interpretation of events in the way they believe is most accurate. Sometimes people agree, other times not so much. But any TL worth it's weight in gold is not that does everything the author would prefer. It does what the author believes would happen.
 
History is a delicate thing, a complex interplay of action and reaction. There's more to alternate history than just deciding what you want to happen and ramrodding it without regard for the historical factors at play. What-ifs do not exercise themselves in a vacuum, but are subject to all the other factors that your point of divergence has no influence on. Your "what if" for this scenario was "what if Nicholas II is assassinated in February 1917". Wolfpaw has already correctly indicated what happens - Alexei ascends the throne with Grand Duke Michael and Empress Alexandra as regents.

This alone is a fascinating POD and could have sparked a nice multi-page discussion. In fact, I think that if you were to make a new thread with that as the opening post, you'd quickly get feedback that will help you begin to create a timeline. But there is no way at all that the Duma takes control of the situation that quickly, much less completely eliminates the monarchy's decision-making power.

What-Ifs are not license to decide what happens in an entire timeline. They modify the flow of history, and the joy and challenge of alternate history is figuring out how the flow will be altered. We know what would happen immediately after the death of Nicholas II, and the Duma calling democratic elections isn't it. Your timeline consists of you intervening to shape the flow of history the way you wish. You can't do that in alternate history, any more than you can alter the course of the Nile after throwing a rock in it.
Well at least it's more plausable than a scitzophrenic 16 year old girl leading the French to victory over the English who controlled 2/3 of France or how the Ottomans rose to such high power from such small landholdings, or how The Mongol tribes were united by a single man who had nothing and created one of the largest empire evr defeating the Chinesee and The Persians:/:/ Plus we have the ASBness of how a small cold island nation came to dominate te whole world, how Rome rose to such power, how Germany was succesfully united.....In history many things are ASB in otl but they still oocur so give him a chance this POD is at least more plausable than the events which I listed that occured in otl.
 
In history many things are ASB in otl but they still oocur so give him a chance this POD is at least more plausable than the events which I listed that occured in otl.

I never called it ASB. Unlike some, I don't just sling that accusation around whenever I dislike a concept. I have problems with this scenario because it's improperly explained. The OP failed to properly explain that chain of events, beginning with the immediate aftermath of the POD, from which Alexandra and Michael vanish without explanation. The follow-up is either disconnected from the main narrative or consists of events happening without any reason. My issue is NOT with the POD itself, it's a dem fine POD, but the ensuing chain of events makes not a whit of sense. As a matter of fact, that middle paragraph there consists entirely of me saying I love the POD to death, but think he should restrict himself to that to begin with.
 
I never called it ASB. Unlike some, I don't just sling that accusation around whenever I dislike a concept. I have problems with this scenario because it's improperly explained. The OP failed to properly explain that chain of events, beginning with the immediate aftermath of the POD, from which Alexandra and Michael vanish without explanation. The follow-up is either disconnected from the main narrative or consists of events happening without any reason. My issue is NOT with the POD itself, it's a dem fine POD, but the ensuing chain of events makes not a whit of sense. As a matter of fact, that middle paragraph there consists entirely of me saying I love the POD to death, but think he should restrict himself to that to begin with.
Oh I Get it now, then in that case I agree.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Do any of you know what ALTERNATE HISTORY means? It confronts the What ifs? in history, so maybe Pavel is next in line in this ATL, or Lenin has a running mouth. Thats the point after all and i think that you all need to grasp this idea. So it really doesnt matter that Russia had an army waiting to take over, that is a What if statement waiting to happen, what if they were supporters of the new republic?? That is what alternate history is thank you very much!
It has to be plausible though. You can't have a party without large support win elections. You can't change the character of Prince L'vov without an early enough PoD to reflect the changes of his personality. And most important: you can't just throw in things and said they happened, you have to explain WHY they happened, especially the implausible stuff.

And still, the Kadetts as leaders of Russia, please, if there were an election they'd only be able to secure some Middle Class votes, the left i.e. SR, Left SR, Bolsheviks, Mensheviks and Trudoviks would probably get the largest share, and some Conservative movements would probably also do well (there were still enough people believing church and monarchy etc.). Most plausible government would be lead by SR having the Kadetts and Progressists from the Center as well as the Mensheviks and Trudoviks from the lefts as coalition partners.
 
Every action has an equal or opposite reaction. Every yes or no creates two timelines which are called parallel worlds. That is the basis of a timeline. How can you not get that?
 
Every action has an equal or opposite reaction. Every yes or no creates two timelines which are called parallel worlds. That is the basis of a timeline. How can you not get that?

This is exactly what we're saying. In your scenario the actions don't make sense considering the world in which you've created. I'm not saying you can't write it. I'm just saying that it dosen't make sense or isn't fully explained.
 
ATL- Russia's Revolution to Democracy

Let me begin by saying that I am new to this sort of thing and feel free to critique my work. Good Day.:p

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Febuary 1917- Nicholus II is assasinated in Moscow.
-March 1917- Tsar is replaced bu a provisional government. The P.G (provisional government) sets dates for democratic elections.
-April 01, 1917- humanitarians hand out food and medicine.
-April 21, 1917- two russian humanitarian doctors are savagly killed by radical socialists.
-April 30, 1917- Prince Georgy L'vov declares peace with Germany and Austria-Hungary.
-April 31, 1917- Prince L'vov declares war on radical socialist communism in Russia.
-May 3, 1917- memorial service is held for Nicholas II. Radicals bomb the service killing 41 civilians and wounding L'vov severely.
-May 14, 1917- Minister of Justice Alexander Kerensky is assasinated at home.
-May 16, 1917- Prince L'vov announces the state Duman of the Russian Empire is officially dissolved by the Republic of Russian Peoples. Elections are being held off until September 14.
-May 18, 1917- Minister of Foreign Affairs Pavel Milyukov sends note to Allied governments, saying " When the going get toughm the tough get going."
-May 23, 1917- Prince L'vov is assasinated in his office at the Capital.
-May 25, 1917- Prince L'vov is barried leaving responsibility to Pavel Milyukov.
-June 2, 1917- Pavel M. begins the "Communist Purge Policy"
-June 7, 1917- growing support for the Republic muffles the cries of radicals
-June 15, 1917- Vladimir Lenin is released from prison under good behavior.
-June 30, 1917- Lenin begins to "insult" the Republic.
-July 17, 1917- Lenin is sentenced to death for treason under martial law.
-July 23, 1917- Lenin is hung in the Capitals court yard.
-September 14, 1917- Pavel Milyukov resigns. Elections are held and Pavel Milykov is named Lord Marshal Pavel.
-September 25, 1917- L.M Pavel makes a speech at the RRP capital signafying "the senates and the peoples cleverness against an unfaluable enemy."
-October 3, 1917- US President Wilson congratuates Russias quick victory and conversion to democracy.

Russia gets aid from US and Great Britain. Having a premonition of defeat L'vov pulls out of the war with Germany trading territory for peace.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Russia gets aid from US and Great Britain.
This was already going on and the place went to shit anyways. And you can't increase British aid because they were already scraping the barrel as it was.
Having a premonition of defeat L'vov pulls out of the war
I'd say that the majority of Russians had a premonition of defeat, and basically everyone was against the war by this point.

What I don't understand is what makes you think Lvov can just decide to do this and have it just *poof* happen. The faction-ridden Directorate is in charge and it makes the decisions, not that milquetoast Lvov.

And seeing as how the Directorate voted to continue the war as in OTL, I doubt things will change. Again, Lvov was a compromise choice and chosen because he didn't wield any clout with any particular faction. He's not gonna be able to pull this off. Lvov is not a politically-savvy closet tyrant; he's just...a guy. A guy that nobody is in the least bit scared or threatened by.
pulls out of the war with Germany trading territory for peace.
This is unimaginably important and you have to address it if you want any idea of how Russia progresses from your POD.
 
Last edited:

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
If Prince L'vov pull a Bretsk- Litovsk he's toast. The military would despise him, and he'd probably lose support from the rest of his party. The left might respect him somewhat for ending the war though.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
The left might respect him somewhat for ending the war though.
Not if he just folds quick-quick he won't. A sizable chunk of the Left wanted to continue the fight to at least restore the borders of Russia; the Bolsheviks walked out of negotiations with the Germans when all the Germans held were Poland and the southern Baltics.

Lvov's basically in a no-win scenario here. His choice is to gradually lose support by trying to keep fighting (Kerensky Offensive), or to lose support immediately by diving headfirst into a Brest-Litovsk situation.
 
with all ur tips and stuff i am writing a new TL that isnt in modern times, which will help me as a developing writer. Check it out. It just got started but it will hopefully be a imaginitive work of art.
 
just a couple of points -
asssuming Nicholas is assasinated in February 1917 - then it has to be either at Military HQ which is unlikely or he decides in this tl to return to Petrograd (the capital) in order to quell the disturbances and revolts that have broken out (rather than what he did in otl which was remain at HQ umm and ahh and then abdicate)
On his assasination then under the ammended regency Alexandra becomes regent along with the Czars eldest daughter Grand Duchess Olga for the teenaged Alexis (Michael as next in line after Alexis was deliberately removed from the Regency on his morganatic marriage by Nicholas long before the outbreak of war).
That arrangment will be completely unacceptable to the Duma - you have two choices - moderates order the house arrest of the Empress and insist that Michael be named regent (he was known to be more pragmatic than Nicholas had a very good war record and his wife was known to several duma members was thought to have pro democratic tendencies shall we say) - Michael's leanings are often exagerated but he would have been far more willing to compromise with the Duma to ensure some stability (he only refused the throne in otl because a) he wasn't sure about the safety of his family and b) because it was clear that the Duma members didn't want him as Tsar.
In that choice - power goes to Michael who immediately tries to reform the Government with a teenaged boy as a figurehead it might just work (i suspect that Alexandra and her daughters would be despatched to Livadia out of the way and that custody of the young Emperor would go to his grandmother the Dowager Empress - a boy as a figurehead would perhaps persuade most moderates that change was on its way and the dynasty might just survive - but it will be a close run thing and depend on how quickly the new Imperial Provisional Government can impose order on the capital and how ruthless they can be with the more extremists in the Duma who want to go further.
You other choice is far outright revolution once news of Nicholas' death breaks - you could likely have the moderate Duma members decide that the dynasty was so discredited that a republic is the only option in that case the new government is going to have to move very quickly to stamp out the bolshevik threat - which is what it failed to do in otl - and i think it would be very hard given the circumstances in this tl are exactly the same as in OTL.

To be honest if you want a democratic Russia (either Republican or a constitutional monarchy on West European lines) then change Nicholas II's character and upbringing completely, change his wife, have no First World War or have the Romanov dynasty conspire to force his abdication in 1916 or have him murdered in 1916 - an early change in 1916 might just enable government change that might prevent outright revolution.
 
I bring this up time and time again, annoying really, All you need is for A Man Known as Stolypin to survive, you get eventually a Constiutional Monarchy in Russia. Have him pass his reforms and destroy the commies... Real simple IMO.

I'm jus shocked that hardl anyone knows who he is even though he played such a pivotal role in history as the Prime Minister of Duma and managed to banish Rasputin:eek: however after 1915 I agree Russia is ****ed unless they win some Miraculous victories against Germany
 
I would agree the Stolypin was pushing reform and enjoyed some confidence within the Duma and within the Imperial Court - however I think there is some doubt how long he would survive as he was loosing the Tsar's confidence (he was already unpopular with the Empress) and his reforms were a long way from creating democratic institutions and a move away from autocracy (whatever his right wing and monarchist critics might have though) - creating the kind of middle class that would support the Tsarist State was the right idea (that kind of wealthy middle class had in part become the rockbed of constitutional monarchies such as Britain) but would have taken a long time to come to fruition.
 
Top