ATL "cool bad guys" in lieu of Nazis?

[whitecrow]

A lot, of course, depends on exactly how we head off the Nazis. In a timeline where the US joins up with the Central powers, I think it's easy to see the British as America's enemy — and therefore Hollywood's enemy. You just need that one more war so they remain an enemy in the memory of the first movie-makers.

The colonial dominator, while America just wants everyone to have the right to self-determination! Powerful yet effete, full of complex layers of nobility trodding over the common man. And ruled by a King! Depending on the timing, even on sharing a name with the hated George III. Tack on some continuing troubles in Ireland, and you'll have American audiences who love to hate the Brits.

Still, it's going to be tricky to make them the ultimate big bad, what with their long history of individual rights in the homeland. Nobody's the Nazis, after all. But if the middle half of the 20th century is a game of espionage and counter-espionage between the Americans and the Brits in the third world, vying for control and market access, while Europe proper remains a relatively remote German-Russian scuffle, I think we'll see a lot of British enemies out there in ATL fiction, all of it very spy heavy. It's not that hard to fake an accent, after all, so kids everywhere will be on the lookout for British spooks.

And, since this will all be in English on both sides, that stuff's going to fly back and forth across the Atlantic. Depending on the level of real-world tensions, it's going to be more or less contraband, and certainly strongly disapproved of by authority figures like parents and teachers, if it's coming from the wrong side. And I think there will be enough commingling because neither side is really that fundamentally different. There are real geopolitical fights, but not a lot of real idealogical conflict. Just a contest for domination worldwide. Authors are going to have to invent a lot of the squabbles: I imagine the American side will believe the British monarchy to be fixated on re-conquering the US, perhaps even sending a young royal to run for President undercover in a few comic books.

The English side, I'm less sure. Thoughts?

Reminds me of these two threads on U.K.-U.S.A. Cold War.

 

[Tannhäuser]

The biggest trouble with Japan is that, in WWII, there uniforms were downright lame. If they improve post-war (assuming Japan wins, or that there was no war at all), then that could help. Maybe a sort of shiny/black/Nazi combined with Samurai chic.

 

[Falecius]

Khmer Rouge=Yellow Peril+Dirty Commies+Insane Genocidal Nastiness.
Just give them cool uniforms and some weird tech.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

The biggest trouble with Japan is that, in WWII, there uniforms were downright lame. If they improve post-war (assuming Japan wins, or that there was no war at all), then that could help. Maybe a sort of shiny/black/Nazi combined with Samurai chic.

Even without a japanese victory, mishima with a more succesful shield society might work:

 

[Hörnla]

The biggest trouble with Japan is that, in WWII, there uniforms were downright lame. If they improve post-war (assuming Japan wins, or that there was no war at all), then that could help. Maybe a sort of shiny/black/Nazi combined with Samurai chic.

They only have to add rows of Blue and Red dots and something ressembling a Huge Ball-pen in the breast-Pocket.

If they then let a Guy with a Huge dark helmet hang around... They will Look pretty Death-Star.

 

[Badshah]

A lot, of course, depends on exactly how we head off the Nazis. In a timeline where the US joins up with the Central powers, I think it's easy to see the British as America's enemy — and therefore Hollywood's enemy. You just need that one more war so they remain an enemy in the memory of the first movie-makers.

The colonial dominator, while America just wants everyone to have the right to self-determination! Powerful yet effete, full of complex layers of nobility trodding over the common man. And ruled by a King! Depending on the timing, even on sharing a name with the hated George III. Tack on some continuing troubles in Ireland, and you'll have American audiences who love to hate the Brits.

Still, it's going to be tricky to make them the ultimate big bad, what with their long history of individual rights in the homeland. Nobody's the Nazis, after all. But if the middle half of the 20th century is a game of espionage and counter-espionage between the Americans and the Brits in the third world, vying for control and market access, while Europe proper remains a relatively remote German-Russian scuffle, I think we'll see a lot of British enemies out there in ATL fiction, all of it very spy heavy. It's not that hard to fake an accent, after all, so kids everywhere will be on the lookout for British spooks.

And, since this will all be in English on both sides, that stuff's going to fly back and forth across the Atlantic. Depending on the level of real-world tensions, it's going to be more or less contraband, and certainly strongly disapproved of by authority figures like parents and teachers, if it's coming from the wrong side. And I think there will be enough commingling because neither side is really that fundamentally different. There are real geopolitical fights, but not a lot of real idealogical conflict. Just a contest for domination worldwide. Authors are going to have to invent a lot of the squabbles: I imagine the American side will believe the British monarchy to be fixated on re-conquering the US, perhaps even sending a young royal to run for President undercover in a few comic books.

The English side, I'm less sure. Thoughts?

That. Would. Be. Awesome. Seriously.

Can you imagine it? The evil Brits with those goddamn top hats and monocles and sniveling sneers and mustaches, wearing those black suits, riding a wave of colonial enslaved manpower. Jeez, propaganda in that world will hit huge heights.

And on the other side of the pond, the usurpers, the neo-imperialists who want to shift the balance of the world. But they know they can't. Only those with the propah accent can control the world and fight for good. Them Yankees riding a wave of Caribbean enslaved manpower.

BTW don't take my post too seriously. Just a demonstration of what could be used as propaganda against the other.

 

[Incognito]

Additionally, something else about the Communists that makes them not work.

Namely... they aren't comic booky. Their weapons were boring and practical, while the Nazis actually did have cool but impractical war machines.

Thanks for your replies!

I agree with those who said that the Soviets will not work simply because they are too, well, realistic. Flawed utopian intentions, petty egoism and a system that encourages utter dicks to rise to the top make for good "real life" villains, not cackling genocidal madmen in flying saucers.

Not sure if anyone has posted this link yet:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SovietSuperscience

How can anyone forget Lysenkoism and other far-out theories of Soviet Union?

This is crazy, but what about a Dracula/Bathory Satanist Hungaro-Wallachian Empire of Darkness?
.

So something like this TL:

http://www.ultrasylvania.com

Okay... despite being rather sympathetic to Anarchism, this is an interesting point but...

The problem is this would only work for the soft action flicks, as any closer examination of Anarchism(outside of perhaps Primitivists) wouldn't make them good villain material. For Anarcho-Fascists... yeah...

Point is, Anarchists aren't as universally hated as Nazis.

But in our world Anarchism never took off as a major ideology. If there was an “Anarchist Block” of nations, I could see them becoming Hollywood baddies. Lets suppose a hypothetical world where due to a POD in sometime around WW1 anarchist Nestor Makhno comes to power in Ukraine, Spanish Civil War results in anarchist victory and anarchist movements succeed in other nations, forming an “Anarchist Block”

Scary ideology? Check out Makhnovshchina’s flag:

The slogan reads "Death to all who stand in the way of freedom for working people!"

And anarchist operated the ominously-named “Black Guards”

Evil-looking and/or badass leader? Here is Makhno

Are they "evil" evil? I don’t know much about Makhno but I did hear him compared to Pol Pot . I also heard that his soldiers were infamous bandits and cutthroats.

Snazzy cool uniforms? Let’s see…

Makhno’s anarchist troops:

Anarchist Russian Sailors in Helsinki, 1917

Russian Civil War Anarchist Reenactment:

Anarchists during Spanish Civil War:

So not surprisingly there is variability. I suppose given the anarchists’ propensity for black maybe Makhno’s Cossack uniforms could evolve into something like this:

Super science or occultism? No, since the anarchists never gained enough movement to set up their own research institutes. But in an “Anarchist Block” ATL…

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO​

On another note, I’m surprised no one has suggested this guy yet:

Assuming that 1) Gaddafi & his “Arab Socialism” Jamahiriya ideology is somehow not butterflyed away in “No Nazis Germany” TL and B) He manages to create either his envisioned Maghreb super-state or an Arab Union (how? If you find a way to avoid Nazis without butterflying away Mummar you can probably find a way for him to form a superstate )

Thus, you’d have a large Arab, Muslim nation (!) controlling vast amounts of hydrocarbon fuels, lead by a guy who in OTL was infamous for supporting terrorism…

…had expansionist plans…

….created strange “Islam-Socialist” ideology (managing to combine 2 things the West fears most of all )…

…had an all-female bodyguard…

…and dressed like a comic book super-villain

The only thing missing is research into wacky super-science – which I am sure could be arranged in an ATL where Gaddafi controls the resources of most of North Africa.

 

[BigWillyG]

I wouldn't be surprised if Gaddafi hadn't tried evil, outlandish superscience during his reign IRL.

 

[whitecrow]

Something I remembered - what about Euro Crisis being seen as Deutschland's doing, resulting in (non-Nazi) modern German characters/steriotypes being cast as "Hollywood Villains" in popular culture?

 

[Killer300]

Icognito: ... lets just that Mahkno is a bag of worms you should NEVER touch, unless you have done much research on him. I never bring him for a reason, so please return the favor.

With that in mind, I think Fascist Italy could work, assuming it exists. Besides that well...

 

[oshron]

Also, should be noted that the U.S. are far from being portrayed as heroes.

yup. i haven't read the entire series yet, but the US in general is definitely the anti-hero of the story while the CSA under Featherston is definitely the straight-up villain; in the previous books, both countries were "anti-heroes" in that Turtledove had characters on both sides who were heroes and villains, victims and perpetrators. personally, that's what i like about the series: it put the traditionally "evil" CSA on the side of the Entente, usually cast as the good guys in fiction, while the USA is with the typecast bad guys like Germany

I did not know that about the European portrayals. That is interesting.

I miss the long-before-Al Qaeda Hollywood Arab stereotypes, which included Jamie Farr's lovable Sheik in Cannonball Run, etc.

and Aladdin. and Sinbad the Sailor.



on my own part, i wrote up an ATL version of Temple of Doom set in my ASB ATL which could give some ideas: basically, its the same story but set in a revived Aztec Empire (remember, ASB) and the Thuggee are replaced by Aztec cultists, complete with human sacrifice and snake worship (in the context of the ATL, i kinda designed the "script" as being full of misconceptions; its also important to know that, ITTL, human sacrifice is not practiced in the revived Aztec Empire)

with their exotic weapons and animal-styled clothing (particularly with the jaguar warriors), Aztecs and Mayans could make for good "fad" villains, being the mainstay bad guys in movies for a few years in a given TL before dropping out of popularity (potentially because of political correctness in a TL where they and their beliefs survive as a significant entity in the world)


in Asian media, the "cool bad guys" could very well be Mongols because of their traditional conquering role in history. particularly, it could go well in an ATL Japan where most of mainland Asia is controlled by a continuing Mongol Empire. they may not have the exceptionally cool uniforms like Nazis do IOTL, but who knows what ATL Modern-Mongol uniforms could look like? set it in the Middle Ages and throw in the use of primitive flamethrowers and firearms by the Mongols and have ninjas and samurai for the Japanese and you've got a decent movie there

 

[BBadolato]

If Mahkno is out, then so is the Ugern-Sternburg. Although what if for some odd reason the Russian Civil War stalemates and you have the numerous factions still surviving and a significant dislike of all parties involved. Could you have the Russians fit bill with a variety of flavors?

 

[MaskedPickle]

You forgot about Gaddafi's crimes against humanity that his minions assassinated Doc Brown.

 

[SPJ]

You forgot about Gaddafi's crimes against humanity that his minions assassinated Doc Brown.

Great Scott!

 

[Hörnla]

I Know. That's Heavy!

 

[Tyr]

The Nazis have the villainous advantage of being white.Racists too. You're not going to get anyone defending the poor little Nazis.
Its hard to go down the evil Chinaman (for example) route without getting into over the top Fu Manchuesque questionable content. Nazis coming from a western culture...their Germaness is often downplayed (indeed the old Prussian army officer is often one of the more sympathetic of the Nazis) and instead they're just painted as bad guys without any racial attachments, they're us only evil. Which works well both in terms of an awesome villain and avoiding causing offence.

But seriously though...America did an alright job with communists didn't it?
It is often said that this is a big difference between British and American light science fiction- American villains were always Russians/commies, Britain never got over the Nazis being the villains.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Britain never got over the Nazis being the villains.

or the french......

 

[Orry]

especially the French.....

Having to have them as allies - twice.... the Germans only had to have the Italians once and then only for part of the war........

 

[SPJ]

What about the Spanish Inquisition or a modern copycat group as villians.

 

[Hörnla]

What about the Spanish Inquisition or a modern copycat group as villians.

Nobody expects the Spanish exquisition.

With their comfy chairs and cuddly cushions.

Of course it doesn't work in a timeline, where thisexists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

or that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqgZnvfJ9Jg