ATL "cool bad guys" in lieu of Nazis?

[modelcitizen]

What about an ATL branched off from TL-191 (or a similar TL) in which the CSA's Red Rebellion is succesful and forms a new Communist government. But then a black leader like the character Cherry (hey a communist female leader could happen) who is VERY racist against white people takes power, instigates a Stalinistic regime, and commits genocide against the countries white anglo-saxon inhabitants.

I think the creation a of a "Jazz & Genocide" culture could make some pretty cool bad guys. Plus the concept of a government controlled by black people who mistreat white people is a nice subversion of the trope if you know what I mean. Kind of like Marvel comics House of M series in which mutants rule the world and humans are an abused minority.

...not so much "mistreat" as much as go Khmer Rouge on them, if I'm interpreting this correctly?

One tragic course could be a campaign against fair-skinned black people, when in fact they themselves had been treated as black by white people all along, of course.

 

[modelcitizen]

The "All about my brother" TL has some fictional ideologies such as Confucian Christianity, National Socialism (that is NOT OTL Nazism) and Anarco-Nihilism with a huge potential for cool ways of being absolutely nasty or, at least, to be represented as such in Western pop culture.
Confucian Christians, who evolve out of a semi-successful Tai Ping rebellion, are a particularly crazy bunch.
Linkwerk's "The fountainhead filibuster" features a Randite Katanga. Succesful Randites can be a nasty in disturbingly "cool" ways I think, especially concerning the American pop culture.

Sticking to OTL, the Khmer Rouge have potential as well.

Another disturbing possibility could be some offspring of the Arya Samaj somehow managing taking the lead of an alternate Indian independence movement that turn horribly violent. They would have some clear Fascist leanings, and be influential to TTL alt-Nazis. At the same time, they'd probably pick some lefitst ideas out of opportunism, adding a "evil socialist" flavor to the mix.
Think of it: ultra-nationalist, religious (and the religion is Hinduism, with all the gods and the complex theology and dharma notions), racist (out of European influx, yes, but still), gender-oppressive to the extreme (have them endorsi the sati widow practice), and endorsing a weird mix of oppressive caste oppression AND collectivist socialism.
And I bet they'd be also vegetarian, so Godwin is happy.
Oh, and they'd speak Sanskrit, for Heaven's sake.
Uhm, it probably deserves a mini TL, someone should write it.

Or... well, let this fool take a sizable chink of Eurasia and do crazy shit. Evil Buddhist Empire by Tsarist leaders. In Mongolia.

There are Hindu nationalists who actually killed people for suggesting that Hindu ancestors were not always vegetarian. Evil irony alert!

 

[modelcitizen]

In Europe, there are some B-movies where Arabs are portrayed with the old Jewish stereotype... I am aware that Hollywood has used Arab Muslims as villains often, but as far as I know, not with the old anti-semitic panoplia... At least, I cannot remember any such movie.

I did not know that about the European portrayals. That is interesting.

I miss the long-before-Al Qaeda Hollywood Arab stereotypes, which included Jamie Farr's lovable Sheik in Cannonball Run, etc.

 

[Gannt the chartist]

Hungarians

They have the finno-ungric otherness of language, lots of Gold braid, uniforms, Noblepeople with a vampy sexiness (in tight fitting uniforms) and it worked in the first Flashman book.

 

[VictorLaszlo]

Many posters look at the thread from OTLs perspective and state that Stalins Soviet Union would never have made as good a villain as Nazi Germany. This might be correct in a world where both systems did exist at about the same time. But in a world where Hitler never takes power and thus there is no Nazi Germany, novelists, screenwriters, producers and directors simply would have to do with the best / worst there is. And if Stalin's terror regime had not been white washed the way it was in OTLs WW2 in the West (which went so far that George Orwells allegorical novel "Animal Farm" was not published until after the war) to make an alliance palatable for the public, and without a Nazi Germany to fight against it would not have been, there would have been anti-soviet propaganda movies showing evil red hordes against which brave Finns and, should Stalin have decided to attack Poland, patriotic Poles are defending their invaded countries. And while soviet uniforms might not have been as elegant as Nazi ones, they still were used to quite a good effect in OTLs Golden Eye.

 

[Killer300]

While this is perhaps true, the problem I'd argue is the Soviet Union is still sympathetic if one takes a closer look ideologically. Because of this, they are only good for soft action movies, and that's pretty much it. The deep dramas and all involving the Nazis won't work as well because the Soviet Union doesn't have a, "blood for blood god," style ideology like Nazism does.

Now, with that in mind, an interesting thought would perhaps be Fascist Italy, assuming it exists. To be fair, they weren't as bad as Nazi Germany, but they still had the usage of chemical weapons and all going for them in regards to evilness.

 

[Cambyses]

A theocracy. Specifically one in the form of a military order.

The Teutonic Knights in particular would make good villains. If you want them in a more modern setting, just have a POD where they defeated Poland and set up a crazy militaristic theocracy.

Stormtroopers with winged helmets, what's not to like?

 

[SPJ]

What about Fascist Spain? In a world without Nazis they could be pretty good villians if they all turn out to be like the General in "Pan's Labrinth"

 

[Tannhäuser]

Undoubtedly, without the Nazis, we could have come up with something else - but it wouldn't have been as cool. To the best of my knowledge, no OTL group has come up with such cool uniforms. Add to that their language, their gothic script, their ancient castles, their occultism, their futuristic weaponry, and their awe-inspiring salute (it's really unfortunate that they ruined it for everyone else).

The Teutonic Knights could work, but I feel like that's almost the same thing.

 

[Brady Kj]

If the Spanish become the "cool bad guys", I wonder what effects that would have on North Americans' treatment of Latin Americans. It could get kind of bad for them, except for the actors who get prominent villain roles.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

To beat the Nazis the Americans will have to sharpen their act.

1) Compared with well dressed storm troopers you average US marine looks down right sloppy. If you look casual no one thinks that you have the credibility to take over the world.

maybe if they finaly adopted the uniform on the left:

 

[FDW]

If the Spanish become the "cool bad guys", I wonder what effects that would have on North Americans' treatment of Latin Americans. It could get kind of bad for them, except for the actors who get prominent villain roles.

The Americans actually used the Spanish as boogymen during their occupation of the Philippines as a way of justifying their presence. It's part of the reason why the Philippines doesn't speak Spanish anymore. In the case of a Latin America in a similar role, it might mean more promotion of Native Languages over Spanish, which would be big in places like Peru and Bolivia, when a fair chunk of the chunk of the population doesn't speak Spanish IOTL.

 

[RadioSilence]

Some sort of legalist revival in China. Or for something closer to OTL alternately, a version of Communism that fell earlier and harder, and was more antagonistic. In my opinion, one of the main reasons that communists are rarely viewed as villains anymore is that they "proved" themselves not to be a threat, and they stuck around long enough that opposition to them became too political to be used in an apolitical film.

This is it mainly. Mao's rule was as bad if not worse than the crimes of the Nazis, but not many people see it that way and definitely not society at large. Another problem is that even if the Chinese Communists did fall harder, they wouldn't be "cool" enough to fit the OP's requirement. One factor, I think, is that they aren't in the European cultural sphere, so while it's possible to respect them or fear them, it's not really feasible to see them as the "ubiquitous bad guys". The Nazis are scary because they were "civilized" Europeans committing unthinkable atrocities against other Europeans. It is very close to home.

 

[Mikey]

A lot, of course, depends on exactly how we head off the Nazis. In a timeline where the US joins up with the Central powers, I think it's easy to see the British as America's enemy — and therefore Hollywood's enemy. You just need that one more war so they remain an enemy in the memory of the first movie-makers.

The colonial dominator, while America just wants everyone to have the right to self-determination! Powerful yet effete, full of complex layers of nobility trodding over the common man. And ruled by a King! Depending on the timing, even on sharing a name with the hated George III. Tack on some continuing troubles in Ireland, and you'll have American audiences who love to hate the Brits.

Still, it's going to be tricky to make them the ultimate big bad, what with their long history of individual rights in the homeland. Nobody's the Nazis, after all. But if the middle half of the 20th century is a game of espionage and counter-espionage between the Americans and the Brits in the third world, vying for control and market access, while Europe proper remains a relatively remote German-Russian scuffle, I think we'll see a lot of British enemies out there in ATL fiction, all of it very spy heavy. It's not that hard to fake an accent, after all, so kids everywhere will be on the lookout for British spooks.

And, since this will all be in English on both sides, that stuff's going to fly back and forth across the Atlantic. Depending on the level of real-world tensions, it's going to be more or less contraband, and certainly strongly disapproved of by authority figures like parents and teachers, if it's coming from the wrong side. And I think there will be enough commingling because neither side is really that fundamentally different. There are real geopolitical fights, but not a lot of real idealogical conflict. Just a contest for domination worldwide. Authors are going to have to invent a lot of the squabbles: I imagine the American side will believe the British monarchy to be fixated on re-conquering the US, perhaps even sending a young royal to run for President undercover in a few comic books.

The English side, I'm less sure. Thoughts?

 

[Alex1guy]

A super powered Japanese Empire perhaps? With Samurai, giant mecha, laser beams, nano-technology... Wait a second...

But seriously, I always thought a more agressive Japanese super Empire has potential (I think RA3 missed an oppurtunity here), with robots, a Monarchy, ancient customs and what not. Done right it could fit the bill.

 

[Hörnla]

... On the British as Bad Guys: an Evil churchil would Be pretty badass. Also, their uniforms in WW2 were cool, too, As they just "fit" the British-Ness. If you have Special organizations Whose uniforms go further from there, we could get . Add to that an Evil replay of arthurian Tradition, a Round Table, celtic mysticism, plenty of castles, too and london's undeniably imperial Architecture... And the Accent!

 

[BigWillyG]

A super powered Japanese Empire perhaps? With Samurai, giant mecha, laser beams, nano-technology... Wait a second...

But seriously, I always thought a more agressive Japanese super Empire has potential (I think RA3 missed an oppurtunity here), with robots, a Monarchy, ancient customs and what not. Done right it could fit the bill.

Thank you for reminding me of RA3.

.....the fearsome technology cult, known as the Empire of the Rising Sun.

 

[Simreeve]

Alien Space Lizards

 

[Killer300]

Guys, I think we're assuming something based, if loosely, on a real world opponent. Why not a completely fictional one be the one that becomes the new cool villain?

An example would be aliens, but another one that is somewhat unlikely but could work quite well. Namely?

1984. Specifically, what if the three superstates could actually be competent in military affairs? Then... well, there's a terrifying villain for you.

 

[rvbomally]

1984. Specifically, what if the three superstates could actually be competent in military affairs? Then... well, there's a terrifying villain for you.

But they're already terrifying villains for each other. Minitru and its equivalents make sure every citizen knows that they are fighting against a legitimate threat.