Athens rule.

What if Athens had won the Peloponnese war aganist Sparta,and the expedition in Sicily had been a success with the conquest or the surrender of Syracuse?

athspa.jpg
 
They would probably have a brief hegemony that would come crashing down within thirty years (at best) or so due to rebellions. I've been convinced one of the Greek poleis establishing long-term hegemony over all the others is nearly impossible. Not implausible, but EXTREMELY unlikely.

I'd still have to think the Macedonians would conquer Greece proper ITTL. Athens won't be able to fight off rebellions (if they make it that long, which is very, very close to ASB) and the Macedonians, so they might actually have an easier go of it.
 
They would probably have a brief hegemony that would come crashing down within thirty years (at best) or so due to rebellions. I've been convinced one of the Greek poleis establishing long-term hegemony over all the others is nearly impossible. Not implausible, but EXTREMELY unlikely.

I'd still have to think the Macedonians would conquer Greece proper ITTL. Athens won't be able to fight off rebellions (if they make it that long, which is very, very close to ASB) and the Macedonians, so they might actually have an easier go of it.

I agree that Macedonia might have an easier chance conquering the Greek cities

But if Sicily is part of Athenian Empire,and Macedonia conquer Athens,Alexander rule also on West.
So maybe at some point is probable a clash with Carthage and maybe Rome.
Maybe before of the expedition aganist the Persian Empire.
 
Depending on what happens after Athenian hegemony is achieved this could easily butterfly the rise of Macedon or make it that much easier, but it's certainly an interesting scenario.
 
But if Sicily is part of Athenian Empire,and Macedonia conquer Athens,Alexander rule also on West.
So maybe at some point is probable a clash with Carthage and maybe Rome.
Maybe before of the expedition aganist the Persian Empire.
No, because the Athenian "empire" is not a territorial empire in the modern sense of the term (nor it was the Spartan hegemony, anyway).
Delos League members (the "Athenian empire", when Athen had an empire of sort) were not Athen subjects (such as, e. g. eastern europe in the '50), but poleis which were forced (often in point of the sword) to give Athens an annual amount of money.
they did not by large follow Athen in war, and several of them had even an oligarchical government.
The very idea of annexing another polis would strike as absurd to a greek of that time, and the reason is ... they are different polis! they are good to trade with, and to be forced to pay a tribute (if possible), and to be occasionally runsacked, but they stay a different polis (lowly scum!) , very different from OURS polis (may Zeus protect it).
 

Maur

Banned
No, because the Athenian "empire" is not a territorial empire in the modern sense of the term (nor it was the Spartan hegemony, anyway).
Delos League members (the "Athenian empire", when Athen had an empire of sort) were not Athen subjects (such as, e. g. eastern europe in the '50), but poleis which were forced (often in point of the sword) to give Athens an annual amount of money.
they did not by large follow Athen in war, and several of them had even an oligarchical government.
The very idea of annexing another polis would strike as absurd to a greek of that time, and the reason is ... they are different polis! they are good to trade with, and to be forced to pay a tribute (if possible), and to be occasionally runsacked, but they stay a different polis (lowly scum!) , very different from OURS polis (may Zeus protect it).
That's because poleis is not a state. Poleis is a society, and it doesn't make sense to "annex" another society. Well, actually, there are few cases where others were given citizenship en masse, but they were rare.

That said, slaughtering everyone in another city and taking their land is perfectly acceptable ;)

Anyway, it's exactly their attitude towards citizenship that dooms idea of stable pan-hellenic state/empire/whatever.
 
If Athens wins then most likely they'll force the Greek cities into a pan-Hellenic alliance, demand some tribute and then go back to trading with Persia and trying to conquer Egypt. That's where their real interests lay-remember what Aristotle said, Greeks are like frogs around a lillipond.
 
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