What if the Sicilian Expedition of Athens, during the Peloponnesian War worked and they managed to take control of the Island, i think in the long run it would actually be a bad thing for them as it would leave them to stretched, whilst it may enable them to break Sparta a bit more i think it would also encourage Persia to reinvade seeing both Athens and Sparta were weakened
Athens and Sicily
- Thread starter Jammy
- Start date
i dont think they would be able to hold it long the romans and carthagians are still there you know
MrP
Banned
It couldn't be worse than OTL. They lost thousands of well-off citizen hoplites, and scores of ships when they failed. If they were to succeed (and Greeks of the period were a bit crap at sieges - remember when the war started and how long it took to take a city with a garrison of 400. Syracuse is bigger and better defended than that), then they could dump a smaller garrison, and send lots of ships, lots of hoplites and auxiliaires, a fair whack of cash, and some grain back to old Athens. Persian intervention was down to one satrap, IIRC,* rather than the polcy of the Great King.
* Sorry, his name escapes me - Tissaphernes, maybe?
They weren't exactly a military power, more of a commercial power. Moreso this early in their history.
Around the time of the Athenian expedition, they were aslready a power to be reckoned with in Sicily. Of course, the aim of actually taking all of Sicily is ridiculously optimistic. With luck, the Athenians can hold on to Syracuse. That will bring them the allegiance of some Sicilian Greek cities. As to the rest - some of them preferred Carthaginian overlordship to Syracusan rule OTL...
so carthage doesnt have the power to really stop them but the athenians are not able to annex more then syracuse and some minor cities
this moves nothing
this moves nothing
I never thought of them taking Sicily myself. Although, some that preferred Carthage to Syracuse might prefer Athens to Carthage. Very similar circumstance, and closer culture.
And a distant sovereign is generally preferred to a near one, in such circumstances.
It moves a world if Athens keeps its foothold. Sicily is a *big* island in Greek terms. We can really not overstate the ridiculous tininess of territories fought over in the heroic contests of the Peloponnesian War. Sicily and Italy were the Greeks' America, everything was bigger and richer and the cities and armies larger and better supplied. Athens was a city state fighting in the same league as Syracuse or Croton, so it stood a chance, but it would immediately find itself at the edge of a world of seething conflict. The Sicilian Greek cities were frequently at war, with the Italiotes providing allies and enemies where needed. The Italic tribes were far from subdued, and even the Sicel population was probably not entirely pacified. The Carthaginians held about a third of the island and were not likely to peacefully watch a great power establish itself in the best fortress on hand. If Athens really means to keep Syracuse, it commits itself to a series of wars on a large scale. That would pretty much pull it out of Greece as a major player.
I think the right move for the Athenian grand Strategy should have been
as follows:
Establish which cities in Sicily have an afinity for being an Athenian protectorate in a fashion simliar to the relationship between Sparta & her ally Corinth. Support those cities by helping bulild Stronger defenses.
Improve harbors, Ect. Extra Athenian Hoplies should be rotated in perodically. not too many lest it be too conspicous.
Intead of wasting all that manpower, treasure & Boats on the expedition,
a concerted effor to establish Strong colonies in the Adriatic side of the
southern boot of italy. I am talking about 6,000 pop strong colonies with
well apointed walls and insitu water source, and good harbor. Maybe 3
of these over the span of 9 years.
Another major effort should be made to Turn the Island of Zachythus (w of the peloponese ) into Pearl Harbor (not in the BAD sense) a huge comitment should have been made to really develop that island so it can be used to bottle up any attempt by Sparta to give aid to Syracuse & her Allies.
You use all this insfrastructe to grow your trade and more importantly
Strangle Syracusan Trade & Military options. And expand the size and
importance of allied cities in sicily.
Last and most important. The Athens must always be prepared to engage
and destroy any major naval move by carthage. They are only ones who
have the resources & power to threaten to conquer all of Sicily.
as follows:
Establish which cities in Sicily have an afinity for being an Athenian protectorate in a fashion simliar to the relationship between Sparta & her ally Corinth. Support those cities by helping bulild Stronger defenses.
Improve harbors, Ect. Extra Athenian Hoplies should be rotated in perodically. not too many lest it be too conspicous.
Intead of wasting all that manpower, treasure & Boats on the expedition,
a concerted effor to establish Strong colonies in the Adriatic side of the
southern boot of italy. I am talking about 6,000 pop strong colonies with
well apointed walls and insitu water source, and good harbor. Maybe 3
of these over the span of 9 years.
Another major effort should be made to Turn the Island of Zachythus (w of the peloponese ) into Pearl Harbor (not in the BAD sense) a huge comitment should have been made to really develop that island so it can be used to bottle up any attempt by Sparta to give aid to Syracuse & her Allies.
You use all this insfrastructe to grow your trade and more importantly
Strangle Syracusan Trade & Military options. And expand the size and
importance of allied cities in sicily.
Last and most important. The Athens must always be prepared to engage
and destroy any major naval move by carthage. They are only ones who
have the resources & power to threaten to conquer all of Sicily.
As long as Athens works to remain the Supreme Naval Power of the
Eastern Mediterranean, and keeps its nose out of Asia Minor the
Persians will look toward easier pickings.
Indeed, If the Athenians overcome their fear and prejudice, they might make large trade inroads INTO the Persian Empire.
Were that to happen, Athens would have more influence in getting
the Persians to restrain their Carthagean allies.
Eastern Mediterranean, and keeps its nose out of Asia Minor the
Persians will look toward easier pickings.
Indeed, If the Athenians overcome their fear and prejudice, they might make large trade inroads INTO the Persian Empire.
Were that to happen, Athens would have more influence in getting
the Persians to restrain their Carthagean allies.