Ataturk killed in Albania, 1910.

Let's say that Mustafa Kemal Ataturk somehow dies in Albania in 1910, before his military or political career gets anywhere off the ground.

How does this affect WWI in relation to the Ottomans, and how does this affect the Turkish Revolution, post-WWI?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
But he can channel the powers of Turkish Superman. Somehow I consider this implausible.:D

Anyway, if there isn't another Republican nationalist rising up in post WW1 Turkey things might turn out very different.
 
But he can channel the powers of Turkish Superman. Somehow I consider this implausible.:D

Anyway, if there isn't another Republican nationalist rising up in post WW1 Turkey things might turn out very different.

:p God, sometimes I wonder if Ataturk is treated in Turkey the same was Roosevelt is treated in the states, or Churchill is treated in Britain.

Anyways, I'm basically curious to see how the Turkish War of Independence, and, as you said, the Republican uprising goes without him, if either of them even go at all. I mean, I don't actually know all that much about Ataturk, besides that he's considered the father of Modern Turkey and basically led Turkey during it's birthing pains and all that jazz. For all I know, he might not be as competent as he's made out to be. I mean, could there be somebody more able in the Young Turks who takes over instead, and leads to a more successful treaty of Lausanne for the Turks? Or was Ataturk a diamond in a pile of coal, and without him would Turkey collapse before it even rose?

Seeing a balkanized Turkey might be interesting. I have no idea what sort of effects this causes throughout the region and the world, though.
 
:p God, sometimes I wonder if Ataturk is treated in Turkey the same was Roosevelt is treated in the states, or Churchill is treated in Britain.

Think more like George Washington + Luke Skywalker + Jesus.

Anyways, I don't think it would change THAT much- it depends on the specifics of his role at Gallipoli. He was in command of one of the local reserve regiments which IIRC, made it pretty certain that the allies never made it off the beaches. That being said, the whole campaign was so buggered from the UK end, and the Ottomans knew it was a fight-or-die battle, so I don't really see Gallipoli working just because Mustafa Kemal Pasha isn't around.

The real changes, of course, happen post war. This is where it gets tricky to separate man from myth. Militarily, things aren't really that different. Turkish (and I mean ethnic Turkish) resistance still starts when the French send in ethnic Armenian colonial troops, and when Greece moves into Izmir. Izmet Inonu still fights at.....Inonu (aah, postwar last name choices) and the last intact Ottoman army will still be under Kazim Karabekir in the east. The Grand National Assembly (TBMM) probably will still convene in Ankara, and the Greeks will probably be defeated- although exactly how and how easily will be affected by butterflies somewhat.

The big change is that, while there was a pool of nationalist, competent army officers who wouldn't accept foreign occupation, Ataturk was the "vision guy"- for better or worse he railroaded his vision of secular nationalism through the assembly. It's worthy to remember that the first session of the TBMM was preceded by Koran recitations, processions to local Sufi shrines, and was ostensibly convened in the name of the Sultan in order to save him from his imprisonment under foreign occupation.

Things would get very interesting once the nationalists muddle through a few military victories on that line.
 
I wonder if this would preserve the Sultanate after the war, albeit in a reduced form and with a much truer "nation-state".
 
IIRC, the Ottomans were a, AFAIK, relatively constitutional, liberal monarchy, about on-par with the British.

The only problem was was that they sort of oppressed everybody in their Empire that wasn't an ethnic Turk...

So, maybe we see, without Ataturk around, a significantly lessened anti-sultanate movement, and we see the Ottomans retaining at least a ceremonial monarchy?
 

Don Grey

Banned
Well ww1 would pretty much go according to otl with some changes in galipoli but the ottomans will still win that front because like another member has said before it was so buggered up from the begenning.

The turkish independence war would take a bit more time but not too much because there were sevral compitent commanders that could easly through out the greeks and the armos because it was just hopeless for them for obvious reasons. This has all be done befor and discussed sevral times.

So not much of a change in those two what would realy change is the cultural impact and the nature of the republic if there even is a republic. The country might become a constitutional monarchy. The reform might be a bit diffrent aswell. The republic might not be so strickly secular and there might not a a unifing national identity in the future which might cause problams.Also the state that wasnt what mustafa kemal will be far mor tolerent of backwards islamic fundimetalist which will cause problams in the future. But the country will not balkanize because there is no one realy able to do that. Like i said mustafa kemals impact was mainly cultural and to the nature of the republic.

And there was no anti-sultanat movement thats a myth. Mustafa kemal begged the sultuan to support the people. There are sevral letters between them. He talked about nationalism to motivate the sultan when that didnt work he talked about his duty as an islamic authority to save his muslim people and that didnt work either. He literaly beged the sultan and the family to show so form of support to the freedom of the people but they just didnt seem to care and the family turned its back on there own people. Once he relised the the osman family had just become a pack of degenerate social parasites the family it self turned it self into something irrelevent. So he decided to get rid of them. As the monarchy had become pointless. Because there were quite content of becoming puppets of the powers as long has they get to keep there lavish life styles while there people suffered.
 
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