At what point does it become too late to save Germanic and Slavic paganism?

I'm writing a story with a POD in 602. By this point in time, several English Kingdoms, the Frankish realm, the Visigoths, the Lombards, the Britons and obviously the Byzantines were all Christian European powers. The independent Duchy of Bavaria still has a significant pagan population which in OTL didn't become a minority until around the late 7th early 8th century.

Saxony, Frisia and the Scandinavian Norsemen are all still very much so Pagan, as are all of the Slavic people. My question to you today is, how possible is it to prevent the Christianisation of these people?

It'd be great if we could keep some Elbe Germanic people Pagan but I accept there's a heck of a lot of difficulty in that challenge. If you think you can go ahead, but otherwise, what I'm looking for is the Norse (especially the Scandinavian Norse if not the Jutes and Danes) and at least some Slavic people to remain pagan. It'd be preferable if this could be done without any already Christian kingdoms being annihilated or conquered by non-Christians. I don't mind if the Franks get divided or weakened somehow.

My other question is, I am aware that until around the 11th century, Greek Polytheism was still present in Central Anatolia. If Persia successfully conquers Anatolia, is it possible for the Greek pagans to survive in a similar fashion to how the Yazidis have?

Thanks for all the help. By the way in case it helps, the initial AH is that the Caliphate fails to conquer the Byzantines or Sassanids for a number of reasons starting with the Sassanids not conquering the Lakhmids.
 
I'd say about 200bc or so.

Higher religions are evolving, and one of them will arise, and eventually the various paganisms are going to be pushed into the extreme margins.

Whether it's an Abrahamic faith or one of the Eastern religions or some offshoot of Greek philospophy, some religion or set of them, will arise and do better at filling peoples's spiritual needs.
 
Higher religions

mfw

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lol

I'd say about 200bc or so.

Higher religions are evolving, and one of them will arise, and eventually the various paganisms are going to be pushed into the extreme margins.

Whether it's an Abrahamic faith or one of the Eastern religions or some offshoot of Greek philospophy, some religion or set of them, will arise and do better at filling peoples's spiritual needs.

I am not sure, as with Joey, that I support the idea that there are such a thing as 'higher religions'. Let's not forget that in other parts of the world, paganism survived, sometimes until the present (Shintoism in Japan for example, whilst Japan adopted Buddhism as well, the native beliefs survived alongside it).

With history, anything is plausible. The only reason the Norse converted to Christianity was to trade with the rest of Europe more easily (or at least, the main reason). If Christian Europe is less influential I feel this can be avoided.
 
the descent for german (norse) paganism started rolling to fast to stop, when Charlemagne started sending Missionaries north.
 
the descent for german (norse) paganism started rolling to fast to stop, when Charlemagne started sending Missionaries north.

So my POD being 212 years before Charlemagne's birth means this is potentially avoidable?
 
lol



I am not sure, as with Joey, that I support the idea that there are such a thing as 'higher religions'. Let's not forget that in other parts of the world, paganism survived, sometimes until the present (Shintoism in Japan for example, whilst Japan adopted Buddhism as well, the native beliefs survived alongside it).

With history, anything is plausible. The only reason the Norse converted to Christianity was to trade with the rest of Europe more easily (or at least, the main reason). If Christian Europe is less influential I feel this can be avoided.

Whilst I agree that there is no such thing as "higher religions" it is fair to say that codified religions with universalist traits tend to survive much better. Japanese Shinto is an extreme rare case with Hinduism being far more universalist. The codified part is important too as it implies a civilisation with enough stability or civic development for a more unified sense of a religion to form. Whilst varying tribes may have worshipped Odin or Perun, my understanding is that even within the same culture the theological differences were extreme enough that without a reformation there may be no common pagan identity strong enough to draw upon.
 
The pagans (I hate that word) were actually willing to be converted as a result of battles/wars lost, whereas in Christianity and the other monotheist religions apostasy was a crime punishable by death; even if they converted to another religion of the book. Individual tribes or chiefs would also accept Christ in order to gain an outside ally against their local rivals, or would be unable to put aside their differences soon enough or effectively enough to not be overrrun.

You would need to change the culture of the areas and the way the tribes interact with one another; a strong authority needs to arise in either a theological or temporal sense that can codify the polytheists into something resembling an organized resistance against monotheism.

Basically, I think you'd need a PoD pretty far back, or at least one that occurs in Northern Europe to effect these changes. Otherwise, the centralized religion will eventually dominate the decentralized one.
 
Would it be possible then to have some sort of prophet unite the Norse people to a new, codified faith based on the Norse pantheon?
 
Anything's possible, but even Mohammed was working from pre-existing Abrahamic faiths and scripture as the basis for Islam. You'd need a prophet who could simultaneously unite the Norse traditional beliefs into a cohesive religion and at the same time create a centralized force that unites the peoples into this religion.

The process would need to take a long time, though, and there isn't much time available thanks to Christianity's inherent nature as a proselytizing faith; and there only being one direction to save souls in after the Muslim conquests.
 
Clovis. Once the Franks were Chalcedonian Christians it was only a matter of time for the rest of the European plain. Up until the agricultural revolution of the 17th and 18th centuries, that area was the demographic center of non-Mediterranean Europe. In pre-industrial times, economic and thus military power flowed from demographics, so Frankish culture is always going to exert an out-size influence on the rest of the continent.

You'd have to do a really, really serious Frank-screw to stop the eventually conversion of the rest of the continent once Clovis has converted.

EDIT: Although, of course, Clovis didn't actually bring the rest of the Franks with him all at once. If you can find a way to keep the Franks at least split on the issue, then there is hope.
 
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