At what point did the rise of 19th century Nation-States become inevitible?

What's the consensus here? Did Italy and Germany have to happen eventually?

Damn, I was thinking of posting this topic myself.

I've heard some geostrategists talk about how the northern German plain was prime real estate; it kinda makes me wonder why a strong German state didn't emerge sooner than it did OTL.
 
Did Italy and Germany have to happen eventually?
No. It is perfectly possible, if not likely that some other form of more localised nationalism would arise in Germany. Kind of what happened in the Netherlands and Switserland. neither of those countries consider themselves as Germans and haven't done so since 1600 or even earlier. The same thing could easily have happened in various other parts of Germany, like Prussia.

The same is true for Italy. I could easily see an independent Southern Italy, Sicily or Sardinia. Venice could easily develop its own national identity too.

Mind you in both the case of Italy as Germany, there are so many very small states, that at some point they either have to cooperate with each other or get conquered by stronger neighbouring countries. Mind you, there is always a possibility for a handful of San Marino sized states, but never more than a few.
 
It's certainly not inevitable, though some degree of consolidation is I think.

After 1815, I'd say that North Germany is going to unite- Prussia is just too dominant economically and militarily in the area- but it's quite feasible that the right PoD could leave Bavaria and possibly Baden and Wurttemberg out of it.

Before 1815, there's some interesting options, and I think you can possibly have an east-west split in the north as well.

For Italy, the periphery can probably be broken off if it stays independent for long enough.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
I think the most you would be able to get would be a North and South Germany since anything more divided just becomes pushovers for France and Russia. When your neighbors get bigger you have to as well or get swallowed. Now if you could split France and Russia into pieces, not hard with medieval pods, you can get more viable medium powers in Germany and Italy.
 
After 1815 it wasn't inevitable but it was likely. In Italy to a lesser degree, for gadsake they didn't even all share the same language.

The reason these nations formed was because during the Napoleonic Wars you would see whole nations thrown behind a single cause. This unity at such a high degree led to nationalist ideas to spring up. Within a quarter of a century multiple revolts to unite nations had already occurred. As always the farther back the POD the bigger the butterflies. I Italy you could have a strong Two Sicilies, a stronger Austria, and a weaker France. Germany is a little harder, but Bavaria is plausible.
 
Once the ideas of the enlightenment are in circulation and monarchism is challenged, the nationalism and its nation states become nearly inevitable. The form it takes, particularly in Europe is another matter. But self-rule certainly lends itself to nation states.
 
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